Foundation (2021) - Season 1 (1 Viewer)

[David Weicker]

Spoiler

It's been a long time but what was the "Mule" that did alter the Path in the books?

Spoiler

He was a genetic aberration. He had to ability to sway minds (telepathically, IIRC). As such he was able to 'steer' civilization the way he wanted.
His 'cult of personality' overrode the natural tendencies of societies. So he was able to prevent or hasten events.

 

[DaveF]

One critic says it has turned into Star Wars with the last episode. That it has completely lost the program and does not resemble Asimov's books by depicting space battles that never happened on the books.

I was only able to watch the first ep because I just don't want to sign up another streaming service for just one series.

I read the episode recap you’re referring to. I disagreed with their opinion but kinda saw where they were coming from at that episode per se. But the story arc in subsequent episodes proves them completely wrong. From that recap, I’d advise against following that reviewer since they don’t seem to know how to interpret scifi TV as presented or imagine how it might twist and turn subsequently.

 

[DaveF]

But why put himself in danger by walking the Spiral? He could have killed Zephyr Halima before. Problem solved.

She becomes a Maryr. The trillions of believers who follow her teaching would become entrenched in the belief that Empire is not a person with a soul. And Day would have made real the religious threat he was sought to eliminate.

 

[DaveF]

I’ve watched Foundation from the start, and listened to the podcast episodically (love a good official podcast with cast and crew). Rewatched the premiere episode because it was so dense, and needed to understand the foundation of the show.

I read the trilogy college 30-ish years ago. (I tried to re-read Foundation three years ago, but quit a chapter in because circa 2020, Asimov’s prose was too tedious to slog through.) I remember very broad strokes about there being a Foundation, Psychohistory, an important character called “Mule”, and there are robots governed by the three laws. And that’s about it.

I like the new series. I’m into it. I’ve watched it weekly. I’ve enjoyed talking about it with friends who also watch it. I’m looking forward to season 2.

I can watch Lee Pace all day long. He was good in AMC’s Halt and Catch Fire. He’s on fire as Brother Day!

Jared Harris, who I watched earlier this year in HBO’s Chernobyl, is like one of the greatest working actors right now. Why isn’t he in everything?

And yet…I don’t love Foundation. Not like I love The Expanse. I can’t recommend it with simple certitude I can recommend Ted Lasso.

It’s graduate level TV at times. It’s willfully obtuse. It sets up cliffhangers and forgets about them for three episodes. It’s telling three stories simultaneously. It’s lurching through time. It’s confusingly similar but profoundly different from the source material. The most compelling storyline is about Empire and the least interesting story is the titular Foundation.

I would love a series dedicated to Empire, excising everything about Foundation and Gaal and Seldon. That’s the best part of the show for me. I could have just that.

Empire has the electricity. The emotion. The pathos. The human qualities missing from Asimov’s writing, but are crucial to modern TV. I want more Empire in Foundation and Gaal stories.

Season 2 is officially approved. But that means nothing about the show’s success. It’s generally understood Apple had approved two seasons to start. And they’re doing 2 seasons of everything unless the show just completely fails.

Foundation, per David S Goyer is an eight season plan.

I’m concerned that Foundation is too obtuse, too much of a heavy lift, to succeed and will not be renewed for Season 3.

But i will watch it until it’s done.

 

[TJPC]

I am actually of the opposite view. I don't think all this "Empire" stuff is even in the books, is it? I always want my TV versions to be far closer to the source material. I agree that the "Foundation" parts need to be beefed up however. I am afraid we are going down the path of the recent filming of "Brave New World" and getting so far from the source material that Asimov would only recognize the title as having something to do with his books.

 

[dpippel]

I've tried, really tried, to like this show, but it's just not clicking with me. It certainly LOOKS great, but I find it to be much ado about nothing. It comes off as pretentious because it seems to be trying too hard, I don't care about any of the characters, and to be honest, it's rather boring. Disappointing, because I was looking forward to it. More power to those of you who are enjoying it.

 

[DaveF]

I am actually of the opposite view. I don't think all this "Empire" stuff is even in the books, is it? I always want my TV versions to be far closer to the source material. I agree that the "Foundation" parts need to be beefed up however. I am afraid we are going down the path of the recent filming of "Brave New World" and getting so far from the source material that Asimov would only recognize the title as having something to do with his books.

The first two or three episodes, I was struggling trying to match it to my marginally remembered reading and what friends were saying about the book. And from the podcast, I increasingly understand this is an interpretation meant to keep it surprising even to die hard fans of the book. Reading the books doesn’t tell you what’s happening in the show. I realized that I had to accept the show on its terms to enjoy it. So I’m letting it happen and will try to judge it on its own merits, even if it’s not truly Asimov’s “Foundation”.

 

[SamT]

How come there is only one robot in this universe? How could they be so advanced, having ships, jumping light speed and obviously having AI and there are no robots?! So it's 2 question, why no robots and why keep only one?

 

[TJPC]

Mention is made of the “robot” wars.

 

[Yee-Ming]

I too first read the Foundation books around college time. But I re-read them all recently, ahead of this TV series.

As previously noted, this is very much an "inspired by" take of the Foundation books; indeed so far this season is about halfway (or less) through the first book only, in so far as taking any inspiration is concerned, although clearly some elements come from the prequel books. (Asimov initially only wrote 3 books, returned to the series after a 30-40 year hiatus, wrote two sequels, then two prequels. My guess is the TV series will only cover the first three (original) books.)

And notwithstanding how the TV show diverges from the books, which I am a fan of, I am quite enjoying this as a separate/different take on the underlying premise. Sure, sometimes it gets a little distracting, thinking of/analysing the differences, but hey, as long as I'm entertained, isn't that a win?

Empire is a creation entirely of the TV series: only the Cleon name comes from the books. That Demerzel is the emperor's advisor comes from the prequels, but in the books "he" is not known to be a robot, by anyone. As I'm not always the most observant watcher, I'm not certain if in the TV show anyone other than Empire knows that Demerzel is a robot, but it seems that way to me. (As an aside, given the latest events, and for that matter what happens at The Spiral, I have to wonder if the Three Robotic Laws exist in the TV show -- I'd wager not.)

In the books, characters come and go, as to be expected if the time span exceeds human lifespans. But I guess for dramatic TV purposes, there has to be some continuity, to get TV audiences "invested" in the characters. So Hari survives as an AI copy of his consciousness while in the books at best he appears a few times in years later as a hologram recording. Gaal isn't prominent in the books, but it would appear that in the TV series, she (and biological daughter Salvor Hardin) are to be the progenitors of the Second Foundation and have "time-jumped" by having been in stasis. (In the books, the setting up of the Second Foundation isn't really discussed; some seeds/hints are (ret-con?) planted in the prequels.). She clearly must be a significant character in the series, given that she's the narrator.

 

[DaveF]

Empire is a creation entirely of the TV series: only the Cleon name comes from the books. That Demerzel is the emperor's advisor comes from the prequels, but in the books "he" is not known to be a robot, by anyone. As I'm not always the most observant watcher, I'm not certain if in the TV show anyone other than Empire knows that Demerzel is a robot, but it seems that way to me.

the show has indicated that there are at best rumors / myths that there is a robot in Empire. But broadly speaking no one knows she’s a robot.

Do any others, such as the Shadowmaster know? I don’t think that’s been revealed?

 

[Dave Upton]

the show has indicated that there are at best rumors / myths that there is a robot in Empire. But broadly speaking no one knows she’s a robot.

Do any others, such as the Shadowmaster know? I don’t think that’s been revealed?

It seems to be known only to Empire, but we aren't sure since surely Demerzel's presence across multiple generations of Cleons would indicate something.

 

[SamT]

So what's the big story of the show? I'm not sure I get it. They established they can predict the future of large number of people and have predicted that the Empire will fall.

Then what's the story? They are spending their time to course correct and change the future? They are actively planning stuff and solutions for problems and crises. But how can they change anything they already said it's inevitable.

I guess a better and clearer question is, what are the things they are trying to course correct? They are not just creating a Foundation, I feel like they are doing more.

 

[David Weicker]

So what's the big story of the show? I'm not sure I get it. They established they can predict the future of large number of people and have predicted that the Empire will fall.

Then what's the story? They are spending their time to course correct and change the future? They are actively planning stuff and solutions for problems and crises. But how can they change anything they already said it's inevitable.

I guess a better and clearer question is, what are the things they are trying to course correct? They are not just creating a Foundation, I feel like they are doing more.

The empire (referring to the civilization of man, not the leader) is going to fail. Nothing can prevent that.

Hari Seldon saw two possible followups to that. The natural one where it would take 30,000 years to rebuild, and a 'curated/guided' one where it would only take a 1000 years to rebuild.

The Foundation is the second path. It would preserve the knowledge of the past, and dole out the necessary information at specific times to speed up the rebuilding process. So instead of re-inventing the wheel, the Foundation would supply the blueprints when people were ready. Not too early, where things might burn out, but not later than necessary.

And he recorded himself, so he could 'appear' at vital points in history to confirm they are on the right path. And he lied to the first generation of the Foundation to tell them they were just writing an Encyclopedia Galactica. At the end of the first part, he reveals that they will have an more active part in guiding civilization - they will actually do some leading.

 

[SamT]

And what was the first crisis? What exactly they avoided?

 

[Yee-Ming]

And what was the first crisis? What exactly they avoided?

Getting overrun by Anacreon, in short. But over and above that, they've now forged an alliance between Foundation, Anacreon, and Thespis, making the beginnings I suppose of a breakaway 'empire' in the Outer Reaches. (Spoiler: not exactly what happened the book.)

 

[SamT]

And destroying Trantor was something else? They didn't save Trantor part of their plan?

 

[DaveF]

The Anacreons coming to Terminus with the the intent to destroy Trantor was the First Crisis. Salvor prevented that, enabling the genesis of the breakout empire.

This was all predicted by Hari‘s psychohistory. Except, Gaal was supposed to be who lead the way through the first crisis. She was supposed to be on Terminus. Salvor is not part of the plan, not post of the first crisis.

Hari is imperfect. His math falters at individuals. Specifically with Gaal and Salvor. This might be important for later in the story

 

[SamT]

The thing I don't get, if he is able to predict these crises by psychohistory, why is he able to plan and prevent them? By definition if he is able to predict them, there should be nothing someone can do to change it.

 

[joshEH]

The thing I don't get, if he is able to predict these crises by psychohistory, why is he able to plan and prevent them? By definition if he is able to predict them, there should be nothing someone can do to change it.

There's a big reason from the books why Seldon's plans can be derailed by certain individuals, and it's going to be an upcoming driving plot-force on the TV show, too (he said very vaguely, although there's a direct reference made to this in the series premiere by Narrator FutureGaal™).