Buzz about Onkyo receivers being underpowered has me frustrated and confused (1 Viewer)

[Nick P]

Jeremy,
You and I seem to be coming from different angles on the 595. You keep saying how well it performs from a music standpoint and I am complaining about how it performs from a home theater point of view. You're right, my tastes or your tastes do not mean it is a good or bad receiver but if the numbers for WPC are half of what they claim to be, like they are on the 696, then I do feel ripped off because of it and Onkyo should be ashamed of themselves. If the 696 does only have 46X5 then they should have the courage, like Harman Kardon, to admit it. In the end all that really matters is is the owner happy with the product. Again, I'm not saying the 595 is a bad receiver. It just didn't turn out to suit my tastes.
Ron, the 5250 is very appealing and tempting. I only wish it had a digital volume display. It makes it easier to calibrate and get the desired volume level when in the dark. I'm not sure if the weight difference is a factor or not.
Can anyone compare the type of sound from the Denon AVR 1801 to the Yamahas?
Thanks for all the replies.
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[Paul_Psutka]

Stereo Review tested the Onkyo 777 and Denon 3801 as having 92 watts (all 5 channels driven, 8 ohms, 1 KHz, at clipping). Onkyo and Denon rate them at 105 watts... so close enough.
Onkyo rates the 696 at 100 x 5, but it only tested as 46 watts by S&V. 1/2 the power of the 777.
46 watts vs. 92 watts? not that big of a difference. So if you're getting peaks of 105dB with the 46 watts, the 92 watts will give you 108dB. Both 105dB and 108dB are very loud to me.
Also, if you were to have 89 dB efficient speakers with the Onkyo 777, and 92 dB efficient speakers with the Onkyo 696.... they'd both play just as loud. (I don't mean to talk down to anyone if you already knew this. I'm just trying to make some points).
Also, the S&V tests are with all 5 channels driven simultaneously. They say this is not very common in real-world home theater playback. I guess they are saying that the same sound usually doesn't occur from all 5 speakers at the same time. I think it could with the "All Channel Stereo" mode, however.
"Marketing" is very important, and I'm sure Onkyo wanted
to advertise the 696 as being 100 watts x 5. (up from the 75 x 5 for the Onkyo 676 that was replaced) It's easier for the average salesman to sell a 100 watt x 5 receiver over a 70 or 80 watt one, even if it's a conservatively rated, high-current, heavy weight receiver like a NAD or Harman Kardon.
Onkyo added a bunch of new features to the 696 over the 676. S-video to composite coversion, Component video switching, 12 volt triggers, etc. I'm not sure if Dolby Pro Logic II costs more than having the original DPL.
Anyway, they didn't want to raise the price over the 676 so wouldn't it make sense that they'd figure out how to save a little money in the amplifer
section? and/or maybe they figured out how to increase the 8 ohm power output at the expense of lowering the 4 ohm output and all 5 channels driven power output?
S&V never tested the Onkyo 676, but I doubt it's 8 ohm one channel driven power even came close to the 151 watts (8 ohms, 1 KHz) tested from the 696. I think the 696 far exceeds it's one channel driven rated spec of 100 watts full bandwidth.
But the 4 ohm output suffers and is only 74 watts.... about 1/2 the 8 ohm output.
And as mentioned above, 46 watts per channel with all 5 channels driven.
I would think the old 676 model would work better with lower impedance speakers than the 696.
I still recommend the 696. And if you ever felt that you needed more power, you could add a 5 channel power amp in the future.

 

[Paul_Psutka]

Regarding the Onkyo 575 vs. 595, this reviewer felt that they had comparable output...
http://www.cheaphometheater.com/onkyo-tx-ds595.htm
NICK P, sorry but I'm not too familiar with the receivers in your price range. I'm now considering the Denon 3802, but I'm also waiting to see how the Onkyo 797 and 898 turn out. I don't think the Denon 2801 or 2802's output would be any better than the Onkyo 595 or 696. The Denon 2801/2802 weigh around 25 lbs. Pretty light weight for a 90 watt x 5 rated receiver.
I was all set on getting the Harman Kardon AVR 510 over the Onkyo 696, but then I found out the Harman Kardon won't allow the front speakers to be set to small (with the bass redirected to the sub) when using a 2 channel source with the regular stereo mode. You have to have one of the surround modes turned on in order for it to allow the front speakers to be set to small.

 

[MatthewJ S]

guys, I'd stay away from using weight as some sort of measure of quality until you get some specs on the efficiency of the afformentioned power supplies

 

[Jeremy Anderson]

You're right, my tastes or your tastes do not mean it is a good or bad receiver but if the numbers for WPC are half of what they claim to be, like they are on the 696, then I do feel ripped off because of it and Onkyo should be ashamed of themselves.

Onkyo never claimed 100w x 5 at 20hz-20khz with all channels driven, so the comparison with S&V's results is impossible. Every spec in every manual on the Onkyo website lists specifically 2 channels driven at 8ohms (for all models listed). I'm not saying it's a good thing, and I hate the way different companies rate their products in different ways... but technically you can't say they ever claimed anything other than what was delivered. Personally, I think too many people get hung up on the numbers anyway. But again, HT is all about getting the sound you like, so try other brands until you find the one that moves you.

 

[Glen_L]

Jeremy said...quote: Onkyo never claimed 100w x 5 at 20hz-20khz with all channels driven, so the comparison with S&V's results is impossible. Every spec in every manual on the Onkyo website lists specifically 2 channels driven at 8ohms (for all models listed).[/quote]I'm an Integra 6.2 (basically a 696 with a few extras) owner, and was sure I had read that it put out 100 watts into all 5 channels. So, I checked my owner's manual and sure enough, there it was on page 6 under the list of features (all bold mine):
"100 Watts minimum of continuous RMS power to each of the five channels into 8 ohms from 20Hz to 20kHz with no more than 0.08% THD (North American models, FTC rated)" This can easily be verified by looking at the same page of the 696 owners manual from Onkyo's website .
Yet, in the Specifications section in the back (p. 61), the power is rated at "100W per channel min. RMS at 8 ohms, 2 channels driven from 20Hz-20kHz, with no more than 0.08% THD"--just as Jeremy brought up above. It doesn't bode well that even the owner's manual can't keep the measurements straight.
The other thing I find very troubling is the loss in power going from an 8 to 4 ohm load. Any decent receiver amp section that I've ever seen tested increased power (often nearly doubling) across the 8 to 4 ohm jump. To drop from 151 to 74 watts is anemic.
My best guess is that the 4/8 ohm switch, which is a first for Onkyo AFAIK, chokes voltage back far more than necessary in an effort to keep the unit cool. You can probably still get away with running 4 ohm speakers with the receiver set to 8 ohms, just as Onkyo "unofficially" had no problem pushing 4 ohm speakers with older models. Check the receiver top after it's been going hard for a while to be sure it doesn't get too hot.
I hope Sound & Vision or Onkyo address some of these issues in the near future.
[Edited last by Glen_L on July 31, 2001 at 09:36 AM]
[Edited last by Glen_L on July 31, 2001 at 10:45 AM]

 

[John-D]

It doesn't bode well that even the owner's manual can't keep the measurements straight

The FTC standard, established by the Federal Trade Commission, requires a manufacturers' stated power rating must be met, with both channels driven, over the advertised frequency range; usually 20 Hz to 20 kHz; at no more than the rated total harmonic distortion (or THD).
I believe the first statement was prepared by Onkyo's marketing department in close collaboration with their legal department.
We can complain the way it's represented.. but we cannot say Onkyo has provided wrong specifications.
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The things we own end up owning us

 

[Jeremy Anderson]

Quote:

While I admit that the 8ohm/6ohm switch is kinda' suspicious, I don't see a huge inconsistency with their claimed 4ohm rating. 46w x 5 channels driven = 230w total continuous power (not taking into account dynamic power from the capacitors). So with a 4 ohm load with 2 channels driven, you'll get about 115w/ch. When you take into consideration that Onkyo's 6 and 4 ohm ratings are done with a 1khz signal instead of full range (see page 61 of the manual for the 696), that number isn't far off from what Onkyo claims for that receiver. Plus, the 696's power supply is 460w, meaning there is roughly 90w/ch for transient bursts when needed (assuming all channels driven simultaneously and again, not counting dynamic power from the capacitors).
I'm not saying they're not in the wrong -- I think all receivers should be rated with all channels driven with a 20hz-20khz range to truly show maximum output. But I do want it to be quite clear that Onkyo never really deceived anyone about the power output of the 696. S&V just rated it differently than Onkyo's manual rates it. This whole situation is caused less by Onkyo as a company than it is by the industry not having a hard standard for rating receivers and amplifiers. Onkyo makes excellent gear, and it's sad that this war of semantics and ratings has given them any appearance of intentional deceipt.

 

[David_ME]

i posted this in the wrong thread i ment for it to be in this one. i would also like to add that neither integra states the power into 5 channels anywhere in the specification sheet, and in the 5.2 it is states
Dynamic Power (stereo) 2 x 210W at 3 ohms / 2 x 155W at 4 ohms / 2 x 90W at 8 ohms
and i was wondering what difference Dynamic Power and RMS is?
A couple months ago i was given the option to upgrade my integra 5.1 to an integra 5.2 for free, i didn't want to for the reasons discussed in this thread. i was skeptical that for them to offer ProLogic II and keep the same price they would have to skip on something else. I've become fairly good friends with the dealer i work with so he helped me out. we took the cover off both to look inside, this revealed that lots of things were moved around between the two but that the power supplies were the exact same dimensions. The difference was that the power supply on the 5.1 was located near the back left corner but in the 5.2 it was moved forward about 9 inches, still along the left side. also the capacitors where changed or maybe just the outer shell was changed but they were different, i can't remember what they were rated at thought. other things were changed around also but those were the major changes we noticed. another thing that in difference in weight; the 5.1 was 27.3lbs. while the 5.2 was 25.1lbs. what concerned me was that the 5.1 specifically states that it contains a 12lb power supply, and the 5.2 didn't state anything. so my dealer called integra and confirmed that the power supplies in the 5.1 and 5.2 are identical, but they could have been lying to him.
The last major change that i noticed, that confuses me because i don't know what it means, is that the 5.2 has a power consumption of 4.7A and the 5.1 has 3.9A. if anyone would like to shed some light on what those changes could mean i would greatly appreciate it.
Now after we took it apart he let be bring the 5.2 home to demo it, and over the course of a couple days i found that i liked the sound of the 5.2 better. i can't really describe it but i perceive going from the 5.1 to the 5.2 as a definite upgrade in 2 channel stereo, although i couldn't tell a difference in home theater (or when i could i couldn't tell if it was a positive or negative difference, just a difference). I also didn't have a need for ProLogicII at the time, but i enjoy listening to CD with it now.
i would also like to add that i have speakers that very in impedance between 3.7 to over 20, and i have listened at high volumes for over 5 hours and there wasn't the slightest bit of warmth coming from the receiver. But i do keep it well ventilated and the impedance switch is set at 8 ohms.
thanks
david
[Edited last by David_ME on July 31, 2001 at 12:45 PM]

 

[Ruben Zamora]

I love my ONKY 575X. The sound is just great. Of course I'm coming from an AIWA background. LOL!!.
The only problem I have is its MUSIC. For some reason the onkyo doesnt take advantage of my Two Main SPeakers. When I had my old Pioneer Stereo Reciever I had heard wonderful bass from my fronts. The Onky doesnt do this. And yes I have them set to Large. I do admit, the sound is a lot clearer and better though, which wins me over.
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Ruben Zamora
Onkyo TX-575X
Pioneer DV-333

 

[Paul_Psutka]

Glen wrote:
"My best guess is that the 4/8 ohm switch, which is a first for Onkyo AFAIK, chokes voltage back far more than necessary in an effort to keep the unit cool. You can probably still get away with running 4 ohm speakers with the receiver set to 8 ohms, just as Onkyo "unofficially" had no problem pushing 4 ohm speakers with older models. Check the receiver top after it's been going hard for a while to be sure it doesn't get too hot."
From what I've read about Yamaha receivers, you get maximum output by settting the impedance switch to the 8 ohm position even if you have 4 or 6 ohm speakers.
With the Onkyo 696, S&V magazine (July/Aug 2001) said the following "Output into 4-ohm loads was restricted, however, to roughly 50% of 8-ohm power by the receiver's rear-panel impedance switch. When I tried driving the 4-ohm loads with the switch in the 8-ohm position, the receiver limited its output for self-protection. The same thing occured when it was driving five 8-ohm loads simultaneously, effectively limiting output in that case to around 50 watts. I must note that there's little likelihood of this ever happening in real-world home theater playback".
But with the All Channel Stereo mode I'd think all five channels would be driven simultaneously. Perhaps that's why Onkyo says in the manual something like "this mode is recommended for background music". S&V failed to mention the receiver has an All Channel Stereo mode in the review.
ON THE POSITIVE SIDE OF THINGS, note that the 1 channel driven, 8 ohm 1 KHz tested output for the Onkyo 696 of 151 watts is higher than the Onkyo 777 and Denon 3801 receivers also tested in past issues by S&V.
I'll try to makes sure this is the last time I say this. but don't you think Onkyo figured out how to increase the 8 ohm power at the expense of the 4 ohm and all 5 channels driven simultaneously power of the 696?
[Edited last by Paul_Psutka on July 31, 2001 at 05:02 PM]

 

[Glen_L]

Take a look at Phil Iturralde's S&V receiver compilation chart , paying attention to the "Output @ clipping - 5 Channels Driven" column. Compare the figures in this column to the manufacturer ratings in watts in the column to the left. It's pretty plain to see that Onkyo's older model receivers either met or came fairly close to the ratings. Even the lowly 474 model put out 49W to each of the five channels driven.
I still don't know what to make of all this. So it seems Onkyo did meet the FTC standard, as they only require the rating into two channels rather than all five driven. Maybe Onkyo did optimize the receiver for 8 ohm power into one channel. Maybe there will be a correction in an upcoming issue, or better yet a review from another magazine. I guess only time will tell.

 

[David Head]

Nick,
I just got the 696 Friday and am VERY happy with it. If the setup on the 595 is similar, I have a few suggestions for you to check (forgive me if these are too basic for you and something you've already checked):
1. When you're watching a movie, does the display show that you are in 5.1 mode - "DVD Dolby D" - or does it display "DVD Stereo"? When I first setup the 696, the DVD source was set as Stereo instead of Surround so I wasn't getting 5.1 sound.
2. Do you have Cinema Re-EQ enabled? If you do, it says that it will take the "brightness out...to compensate for the fact that sound mixed for theaters may sound too bright...".
3. Have you verified that the "Late Night" setup is off?
David

 

[Nick P]

Thanks David, yes I did go over the various settings you mentioned when I first got the receiver. I guess receivers are like speakers when it comes to one's preferred taste in sound.
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[David Head]

You're welcome Nick. It was worth a try...
I agree with you about personal preferences. I found the Yamaha receivers to be a little too bright sounding for me with the PSB Image speakers. I preferred the Onkyo and Marantz sound with my speakers, but they're all good receivers.
David

 

[Jeremy Anderson]

Take a look at Phil Iturralde's S&V receiver compilation chart , paying attention to the "Output @ clipping - 5 Channels Driven" column. Compare the figures in this column to the manufacturer ratings in watts in the column to the left. It's pretty plain to see that Onkyo's older model receivers either met or came fairly close to the ratings. Even the lowly 474 model put out 49W to each of the five channels driven.

Notice again in that chart the note at the bottom: "1 KHz into 8 Ohms / Clipping point = 0.3% THD + Noise"
So yes... they're rating with 5 channels driven... but only with a 1KHz signal, not full range. And since Onkyo's rating is done at full range with 2 channels driven, comparing these two ratings is pointless.
God, I wish someone would just pick a standard and everyone would use it already!

 

[Nick P]

O.K., now I'm happy!

I know everyone was worried about me and my receiver problems

so I thought I'd give an update. I tried a Yamaha 5460 and a Denon 1801. I liked the 1801's overall sound but it was consistently lower on the bass peaks vs. the 5460. I then decided to "move up" in the world and I treated myself to a 3802. This receiver is just what I was looking for. It has clarity, definition, excellent bass, and produces a dynamic but not a harsh sound. Of course it costs more but I am loving it so far. Thanks again for everyone's input.
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