Battlestar Galactica remake: Time to weep openly (2 Viewers)

[KevinGress]

Originally Posted by Simon Massey

Tony

Your first two comments would make all those who have watched the whole show smile since your comments are so way off the Mark once the show is taken as a whole. Chariots of the Gods indeed !!

In the remake they are us .....hmm or are we really them??

And as for Starbuck well perhaps u should see the whole character arc first. No characters to care for ....I was incredibly moved by The fates of some of these characters

And yes there is hope... isn't that one of the points. That no matter how bad it gets it is important to continue to hope??

And if I'm going to watch a show about the near destruction of the human race I'm think being a little grim is preferable to cheese ad camp IMO

I'm glad Tony came in and peed on everyone's Cheerios - I was tempted when this thread resurfaced, but held back. Now that's there's an aroma of ammonia in the air.....


First, "massive hit'? While it certainly was a hallmark for Sci-Fi, or SyFy, it's numbers never approached 'massive hit' quantities. Cult-classic, sure. Example, I think we'd all agree that Buffy the Vampire Slayer was a cultural hit; most people have probably at least heard the title. But Firefly, being on Fox, actually garnered more viewers, and we all know its fate...


Second, while I agree that BSG certainly was well-produced, and oftentimes, well written, let's let a few more years pass before we knight it "one of the greatest sci-fi shows ever made." and "I doubt another series will come along to top what BSG did to be honest." I understand, it's opinion. That's why I held off from commenting. I think BSG is certainly one of best sci-fi shows for its time, but I wonder how watchable it'll be 5, 10, or more years down the road. And not because of production - that's certainly top-notch. But because of the characters themselves, which leads me to quoting Simon's post.


I'm sorry, I've seen the entire series, minus The Plan, and any webisodes, etc, and I didn't find one ray of hope. I didn't like the characters, and I wanted to. I really wanted to like Apollo, or Starbuck, or Adama. I wanted to be immersed in the story and think "if I were caught in an battle to the death with machines who looked like us, I'd want to be with these people." But it never happened. These characters were unlikeable, and often I found myself thinking that perhaps the Cyclons (machines) had cause to wipe them out. I don't mind dark. I don't like hopeless. You want a good example of a show that could go dark while maintaining hope, I hold up the aforementioned, Firefly.


I agree with alot of Tony's explanation, other than its caustic tone. I had trouble with some of the storylines, like if your population's down to 30-40K, are you really going to have issues with reporters?! Or that anyone, other than the military, wouldn't be taking a shift or two in any of the various production plants? Or, that a black market gang would actually be able to kill a military leader and not get rooted out and spaced?! While it certainly was well-written in other ways, as a space opera, it was not.


I wasn't in love with the original; I barely saw it. I didn't like the idea of changing Starbuck and Boomer to females, but it didn't last long. It was a good show overall but I just wish it actually had a sense of hope, the characters were more likeable, and that sci-fi shows after it wouldn't attempt to copy it.

 

[Mikah Cerucco]

They hoped to find Earth. They did. It didn't pan out. They colonized another planet as Earth. We're here. It worked out. Hope.

 

[Vaughan Odendaal]

Some of these critiques are beyond ridiculous. The subject matter was appropriately dark and realistic because the producers took it's subject matter seriously unlike the original which was a one dimensional piece of garbage.


The critiques leveled at the characters likability or lack thereof is subject to debate but to claim that all the characters were unlikable is beyond absurd. The show was determined to show us humanity at its venal, self-serving worst and that may not be everyone's cup of tea but it certainly depicted realistic actions and events in a way that no other show had ever done. That's realism for you.

Many of the characters were portrayed as fundamentally good and who cared passionately about the principles and people they were trying to protect. The characters and their relationships were dynamic and that made it compelling TV. Everybody on the show acted based off of their own small slice of the giant reality-pie. The show played out issues in an adult fashion, allowing characters to debate what they were doing, to remember what they had done and, to question why they were doing it.


For me and others, it was this sense of time passing and actions being remembered that gave the show real depth. Characters grew, changed their minds, fell in and out of love, quit jobs and got arrested, lost themselves in drink binges and then pulled themselves together. The characters in BSG had infinitely more depth than those in the original, it's not even funny.


Finally, as far as calling BSG the undisputed best TV show of all time ? I think it ranks up there with the very best (The Wire is one of them and I wager that as a drama, BSG rivals it). It doesn't rank up there because of the explosions or CGI but because of the drama, the depth of the characters and their relationships. Personally I prefer dark and dank over the cookie cutter shit as in the original.

 

What an interesting thread to read. I remember the complaints leveled at the show when it first debuted, most of them from trolls who couldn't get over the original series and put Glen Larson up on a pedestal.


While I have my problems with "nuBSG" (I happen to think the show took a serious dive right after the "Exodus" arc, and I quit watching after the cliffhanger of the mid-third season), that's show has given me more entertainment than almost any sci-fi program I've watched in the last decade. I can't fault something that gave me over two seasons of solid, hard-hitting sci-fi.

Originally Posted by Tony J Case Why don't you actually finish the goddamn show before making a judgment call ?

Why not finish it out? Because it's a steaming pile of yak diarrhea poured directly into my eyeballs. And no, this isnt just a fanboy of the old series going "They changed it, now it sucks". I have a whole slew of problems with the remake all by itself, no baggage required. For starters. . . .


1) The original had a distinct feeling that while they could be us, they were distinctly not us.It wasnt too far of a stretch to see that we are their cousins. In the remake, they ARE us! The costume designers have people running around in suits and ties. We get names like Lee and William, they use blatently earth swear words and modern day terminology. There will always have to be some earth-centric overlap - the Daleks will always speak English, Imperial officers always sound British - but Galactica was TOO close to home to be convincing.


And of course in doing that they completely jettisoned the underling Chariots of the Gods theme of the show - always one of my favorite aspects


2) I hate what they did to the characters. Now, I dont just mean turning Starbuck into a chick, but I mean turning Starbuck into a bitch. Mean, spiteful, no redeeming qualities about her. But that's just one character I could have lived with it if it was just the one that they fucked up, but every single character I wanted to punch in the face. When you're rooting for the Bad Guys to wipe out the last vestiges of humanity, that's not a good sign.


3) There's no hope in the series. Earth is a lie, it's all dark and depressing and angsty.But duh, you say. 9/10th of the human race has just been wiped out in nuclear fire, of course it's gonna be grim. No, no it doesn't have to be. The Doctor committed a double genocide by his own hand (including his very own race who had gone completely Axe Crazy) and while the Post Time War Doctor Who occasionally had moments where it was really dark or the Doctor was about to lose his shit, there's still a strong undercurrent of hope.


I like my shows to have sense of things getting better, not wallowing in self pity and hopelessness.


4) This one is more a criticism of Hollywood in general, but I loath that herky-jerky camera movement during action sequences. Just hold the bloody shoot still and let the starfighters do all the moving. Thank you.


I'm not denying that the original didn't have problems - it's very much an artifact of the seventies, the production was done on the cheap, we get Disco around every corner, Starbuck and Apollo were sporting goofy Man-Perms, and the stories consisted of Guns of Navarone (in space), High Noon (in space), the Towering Inferno (in space) or Lord of the Flies (in space) - but at least it was a hell of a lot more entertaining than the remake.

[/QUOTE]

That's exactly the problem, Tony. You are whining that "they changed it, and it sucks". Here's why:

1) The characters in the original were stock stereotypes at best, and inconsistent, uninteresting people at worst. Starbuck was the prototypical "dashing rogue", Apollo was the "good son trying to do right" and Adama was the "wise old man". Anyone else never got enough screentime to make an impression, and indeed, most of the actors appeared more interested in knowingly camping it up because of the source material.


I don't understand your complaint about people running around in "suits and ties". it's a damn sight better than those ridiculous pyramid helmets in the original, and at least suits are more conventional (so that they don't date as much). As for the "swear words", that's just how people who've been together for a long time are going to be. They're not the charming, lovable, "every situation is solved in an hour" characters of the original. They're all conflicted, morally ambiguous people, and I find it's much easier to relate to and understand them.


2) ...did you even watch the first season? They explained why Starbuck was the way she is: she's haunted by the death of Lee's brother Zack, and as a result, she won't let people get close to her. William Adama is pretty much the only figure in her life she looks up to - her father was never around when she was younger, and as a result, she was rebellious. It's a fairly major plot thread, and there are times when we see that exterior crack.


3) Uh...yes, there is hope in the series. That's the overarching theme.


Honestly, did you watch the show or are you just trolling?

 

[Lord Dalek]

Man this thread is a hoot. It serves to remind me how many fools have left this forum in the past five years.


...and how many of them were named either Jeff or Andy.

 

[PhilipG]

The original BSG had a lot going for it, not least a cast which included Jane Seymour, John Colicos, Patrick Macnee, Lorne Greene, Lloyd Bridges etc. The music was brilliant, majestic (remake's was generic dramatic). The stories, yes, were remakes of Guns of Navarone etc which works very well for me because I love those movies. The intro was great: the narration, the theme, then the guest cast sequence (and I always cheered for the Colonel Tigh credit, for some reason even I don't understand).

People's criticisms of the original (robot dog, really duff episodes etc) are valid ones but, then again, the original was a very inconsistent show on many levels. At its best it was superb, at its worst it was dross - but it was usually entertaining (provided you can take you hard SF hat off).


I found the remake to be pretty consistent (after a pilot that I gave up on twice mid-way through). To compare it to The Wire, imho, is a great insult to that superbly-written and layered series. The structuring of the Galactica remake (particularly from s3 or so onwards) is all over the place. Note that I do like the remake's first two seasons a lot (but not its final two seasons and especially since they recruited what'sherface from Buffy as a writer) although I think the series as a whole suffered by its lack of direction and its resolution. Compare to, say, Babylon 5, which was a great series as a whole but less so when dissected into episodes. Again, imho. The remake's tone was too bleak, the characters too miserable: I may be able to relate to them more but why should I want to?


Having said all of that, I declare the original to be better because the old Cylons were cooler!

 

[joshEH]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilipG

To compare it to The Wire, imho, is a great insult to that superbly-written and layered series. The structuring of the Galactica remake (particularly from s3 or so onwards) is all over the place. Note that I do like the remake's first two seasons a lot (but not its final two seasons and especially since they recruited what'sherface from Buffy as a writer) although I think the series as a whole suffered by its lack of direction and its resolution. Compare to, say, Babylon 5, which was a great series as a whole but less so when dissected into episodes. Again, imho. The remake's tone was too bleak, the characters too miserable: I may be able to relate to them more but why should I want to?


Having said all of that, I declare the original to be better because the old Cylons were cooler!

To NOT compare the BSG remake to The Wire is an insult to The Wire.


One should also bear in mind that they were reworking some major, Grade "Z" 1970s Glen Larson Slop™, which necessitated some serious structural alterations and pure intervention from God Herself to make it work as well as it does. The "classic Battlestar Galactica" was tame and limp, and had less thrills than a twenty-piece jigsaw of soft-focus kittens wearing lavender bows on a wet Sunday afternoon.


Even Lorne Greene with his blue rinse looked like he was about to burst into a showstopping jazz-hands number with a troupe of dancing girls dressed as fairies.

 

[KevinGress]

Originally Posted by Vaughan Odendaal

The critiques leveled at the characters likability or lack thereof is subject to debate but to claim that all the characters were unlikable is beyond absurd. The show was determined to show us humanity at its venal, self-serving worst and that may not be everyone's cup of tea but it certainly depicted realistic actions and events in a way that no other show had ever done. That's realism for you.

Realistic actions like having a father and son constantly fighting even when there was no cause? Realistic like have a military leader, someone who even commanded his own ship, and quality fighter pilot would decide, or even be allowed to become a *LAWYER* during a time of war, not even mentioning the fact that their population was reduced to the size of a large town/small city. And this is adding on to the unrealistic topics mentioned above.

I get it; it's television. Every show has its plot holes. But when someone's holding it up as 'can never be topped' or 'depicted realistic actions and events in a way that no other show had ever done', it's gotta live up to it. There are plenty of shows - including sci-fi - that's shown the kind of realism talked about here. Heck, I'd say that sci-fi has been outstanding as far as showing drama / humanity at its self-serving worst. Firefly, Babylon 5, Blake's 7 are some off the top of my head, and I can find 'dark' themes in elements of Star Trek, Farscape, and Stargate. So, several shows could easily fill those qualities.


That's why I think BSG is easily one of the best for its time. But there's a lot of shows to consider when we start talking *ever*.

 

[Tony J Case]

Originally Posted by alex gregory
Having said all of that, I declare the original to be better because the old Cylons were cooler!

Oh, and this. This a thousand times over.

 

[Vaughan Odendaal]

Realistic actions like having a father and son constantly fighting even when there was no cause? Realistic like have a military leader, someone who even commanded his own ship, and quality fighter pilot would decide, or even be allowed to become a *LAWYER* during a time of war, not even mentioning the fact that their population was reduced to the size of a large town/small city. And this is adding on to the unrealistic topics mentioned above.

The father and son spats were all consistent within the context of the show. They both had different idealistic mindsets and this naturally caused clashes with one another. I see no issue with that. To then claim that there was no cause for any of the fighting is beyond silly and tells me that you never bothered to pay attention.


Lee was not a full blown lawyer but he took interest in the law and he decided to represent a case he felt was clearly unjust based on the allegations thrown against the defendant. His attempts at questioning his first witness clearly showed how inexperienced he was at the time. Was that unrealistic ? No, of course it's not unrealistic. These characters were dynamic and evolved over time. Their wants and/or needs changed over time. Their idealistic views changed over time.

So, several shows could easily fill those qualities.

Yes, of course, let's compare Star Trek and Stargate to BSG now. Unbelievable.

 

[Greg.K]

I think the biggest thing I missed with the remake was the theme and opening narration. I think that was as much a part of Galactica as "Space.. the final frontier" is for Trek. Of course the show itself didn't always live up to the promise of that opening & that is something I really would have liked to see a remake attempting to do.


OTOH I like the grittiness of the remake. I didn't like all elements of the show, in particular the whole "Final Five" storyline, but other aspects of it wowed me.


I liked the old show (loved it as a kid). I liked the new show. My ideal Galactica would probably have elements of both.

 

[kowalski65]

I think you're dead right, Tony, and that's all I'm going to say as far as comparing and contrasting the original series on this thread I swore I'd never revisit.

I will say, though, that it is amazing the anger that this thread has generated on both sides. Fans of the newer series seem to be of the attitude that anyone who doesn't build a shrine in a corner of their bedrooms and worship the series each morning and evening isn't fit to breath oxygen. Fans of the old series seem to want to burn the series producers, actors and fans at the stake as heretics.

If the new series had not been titled "Battlestar Galactica" and the characters not shared the names (and virtually nothing else) with the original series, I don't think anyone would have gotten their noses out of joint over it: Fans would have blissfully watched it, and others would have been blissfully ignorant of it while watching TV Land or RetroTV.

 

[Will_B]

Originally Posted by PhilipG The music was brilliant, majestic (remake's was generic dramatic).

Wow, gotta disagree on that. I haven't bought soundtracks since I was a kid, but Bear McCreary's new Galactica scores were fantastic -- I bought every one. Ok truth be told I liked Richard Gibb's miniseries soundtrack a bit better than Bear's work on the actual seasons, but, they are deservedly popular.


Maybe we have different definitions of "generic". The original 1978 show's score was generic in the sense that it was the typical orchestral score doing the typical John Williams-esque classical music stuff. The new show's score used obscure instruments coupled with orchestra, for a sound that didn't even exist back in 1978...but possibly is familiar now thanks to music now being more commonly inventive in that way (thanks to folks like Peter Gabriel doing his Last Temptation of Christ score mixing different world instruments together).

 

[Josh Dial]

Originally Posted by Will_B The music was brilliant, majestic (remake's was generic dramatic).

Wow, gotta disagree on that. I haven't bought soundtracks since I was a kid, but Bear McCreary's new Galactica scores were fantastic -- I bought every one. Ok truth be told I liked Richard Gibb's miniseries soundtrack a bit better than Bear's work on the actual seasons, but, they are deservedly popular.


Maybe we have different definitions of "generic". The original 1978 show's score was generic in the sense that it was the typical orchestral score doing the typical John Williams-esque classical music stuff. The new show's score used obscure instruments coupled with orchestra, for a sound that didn't even exist back in 1978...but possibly is familiar now thanks to music now being more commonly inventive in that way (thanks to folks like Peter Gabriel doing his Last Temptation of Christ score mixing different world instruments together).

[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Calling Bear McCreary's score "generic dramatic" is about as close to "patently false" as someone's opinion can be. Say what you want about the show, but McCreary is the best composer working in TV today, and his BSG score is among the finest television soundtracks ever (why he didn't even get nominated for awards is beyond me, especially considering that "Police Women of whatever county" show did...).


Top tracks include "Wander My Friends," "Pegasus," "Prelude to War" (a personal favourite), "Black Market," "Dirty Hands," "Gaeta's Lament" (feature amazing vocals by Alessandro Juliani, "Laura Runs," and the show's cover of "All Along the Watchtower."

 

[PhilipG]

Patently false? I watched every episode of Galactica (apart from The Plan) and I can't recall one bar of incidental music*. All I can remember are the drums from the opening, after some pleasant new-age harmonising beforehand. Some people are of the opinion that music works best when you *don't* notice it; that's not an opinion I share. If I don't notice the music then I will label it generic. Perhaps if I were to buy the soundtrack CD(s?) too I might come to agree with you.

(* I don't count Bob Dylan covers)

 

[TravisR]

For me, Bear McCreary's BSG music stands as one of the few really memorable TV scores in the last two decades (along with amazing work like Michael Giacchino's Lost score or Angelo Badalamenti's Twin Peaks score).

 

[Vaughan Odendaal]

[COLOR= rgb(0, 0, 0)][SIZE= 12px]As far as the BSG soundtrack is concerned, I'm surprised that 'The Shape of Things to Come' was not mentioned since it is truly one of the most beautiful pieces ever composed, in my opinion. I highly recommend everyone listen to that and then listen to the garbage that is on TV at the moment. It's unreal.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

 

[Sam Favate]

I thought Stu Phillips' original theme was very good, especially for a television show in the '70s (admittedly, a high profile one). Still fun to hear to this day.


Bear McCreary's terrific work on the modern show is really something else. Very intense and an absolutely integral element of the show and it's mood. That music alone is enough to give someone a heart attack.

 

[Johnny Angell]

I have just started watching BSG (the remake) for the first time. I was not a fan of the original, so I don't have strong memories of it. I'm watching on netflix blurays and have made it to episode 10 (The Hand of God).


I've only read a few pages (more like skimmed) at the beginning of the thread when the show was being trashed before it was telecast. Wow, that was some serious unhappy. I knew BSG had gotten a bunch of good reviews over the years and after watching 30 minutes of the miniseries I was thinking they may just be right. I am liking this show a lot. I'm not the kind of viewer to get uptight about technical details (like the flight characteristics of the vipers). If the acting is good, stories are interesting, and production values are at least decent, I can forgive technical mistakes.


I didn't want to read the thread to get some answers since I figured I would encounter some spoilers. So here are some questions that I hope you won't mind me asking. Number Six keeps reappearing to Baltar. I am presuming that he's not nuts, that she has the ability to enter his mind and appear. She apparently can also appear to others if she wants, as she did in the episode in which Number Six accused Baltar of being a traitor to humanity. Do I have that right? Boy does she like to screw with Baltar's mind.


Number Six keeps talking about religion. Do the Cylons really have a religion or is this just a mind game? Or would that be too much of a spoiler to reveal? I'm also wondering about Baltar's Number 6. What is her motivation? She keeps helping him help the humans? Yeah, that's too big of spoiler.


I don't see Baltar as a traitor but as a self-centered, narcissistic dupe. He is helping the humans, but is that because he's in survival mode or...? I wonder what he'd do if faced with aid the Cylons and live or aid the humans and die? Don't answer that, big spoiler I'm sure.


So far, this show is keeping me off balance, I never know quite what to expect. Even in The Hand of God, with a battle at the end that you know the humans must win to keep the series going, I was getting excited watching it.


So far, the casting is quite excellent, except for Tigh. I don't know, something about that actor makes me think they could have done better.

 

[Vaughan Odendaal]

I can't imagine Michael Hogan as anyone other than 'Saul Tigh'. He was Saul and practically made the character. Who else would you have chosen to fill the role ?