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A Few Words About A few words about...™ Barry Lyndon -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

marsnkc

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Memo to anyone hoping to join ol' Stan on his cloud: Check your apathy at the gates, else you're apt to be knocked off with a very loud blast from a certain Stones' song. I can't think of another filmmaker (not even DL) more obsessive and less complacent than the bearded one was.
 
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Ken_McAlinden

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Originally Posted by EC666
A simple glance at the Bluray and DVD side by side should answer your confusion. The 1.66 DVD looks better, more boxy like a Hogarth painting, and captures the alienated feeling and distancing effects which Kubrick was known for. ...
There is no 1.66:1 DVD of Barry Lyndon.

It is completely subjective, but based on my eyes and brain, there is no lack of alienated feeling and distancing effect nor perceived lessening of it vis a vis the 1.52:1 or so DVD due to the Blu-ray's presentation. 16:9 is closer to a "legit" 1.75:1 theatrical presentation of Barry Lyndon than the DVD which was matted considerably less than the 1.66:1 "target". Seeing no compositional deficiencies and perceiving no aesthetically detrimental effects, it is hard for me to get tremendously upset with what seems to amount to Leon Vitali not distinguishing between 1.75:1 and 1.78:1.
 

Rachael B

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"...extremely, highly recommended..." Robert, does that mean this one is an 11 on the ole 10 point scale? I thought it looked good but had no idea it was so purr-fect.
 

Jay G.

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Originally Posted by Ken_McAlinden
There is no 1.66:1 DVD of Barry Lyndon... the 1.52:1 or so DVD ...

I don't think it can be said with absolute certainty that there's no 1.66:1 DVD available. However, none of the screenshots provided are strictly that resolution.

However, none of them are 1.52:1 either. Some have been measured 1.59:1, or at worst 1.58:1. In this blog post, the author ripped shots straight from his DVD. After compensating for the 720x480 distortion (DVD pixels are 0.89:1), then cropping, the resulting image is 1.61:1
http://terabin.blogspot.com/2007/01/barry-lyndon-stanley-kubrick-1975_2911.html

It is hard for me to get tremendously upset with what seems to amount to Leon Vitali not distinguishing between 1.75:1 and 1.78:1.




The point isn't that Vitali got 1.77:1 and 1.75:1 confused. He's very clearly gotten confused between 1.77:1 and 1.66:1, the intended aspect ratio according to all sources (including a signed letter from Kubruck that Vitali validated as genuine). If Vitali had stated that the 1.77:1 was "acceptable" due to the letter from Kubrick, that would've been bad enough. However, he seriously thinks Kubrick filmed it in 1.77:1, despite all evidence to the contrary.
 

Ken_McAlinden

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Originally Posted by Jay G.

The point isn't that Vitali got 1.77:1 and 1.75:1 confused. He's very clearly gotten confused between 1.77:1 and 1.66:1, the intended aspect ratio according to all sources (including a signed letter from Kubruck that Vitali validated as genuine). If Vitali had stated that the 1.77:1 was "acceptable" due to the letter from Kubrick, that would've been bad enough. However, he seriously thinks Kubrick filmed it in 1.77:1, despite all evidence to the contrary.
It is entirely possible that Kubrick was specifically and repeatedly calling for 1.75:1 when asked about the subject as it was the widest acceptable (and perhaps narrowest practical) aspect ratio for theatrical presentation. The semantic distinction between "filmed in" and "composed for" is worth considering both in the context of this discussion and when reviewing the statements and documents on record about the presentation of the film. If 1.75:1 was considered acceptable, then the difference between that and 16:9 is trivial enough that I cannot get too hot and bothered about it, especially when it is compounded by the fact that I cannot personally detect any deficiencies in the composition and the Blu-ray presentation is superior to its standard definition precursors in several non-subtle ways.
 

Jay G.

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Quote:
There's a difference between what's "acceptable" to a director and what's preferred. After all, there were thousands of 4:3 MAR transfers that were "acceptable" to directors back in the beginning of home video, so should nobody have complained when studios released many films in 4:3 only on DVD? A Blu-ray in particular should aim for as close to the ideal preferred viewing configuration for a movie as possible, not just what is "acceptable."

As for your personal assessment, I feel like I must point out that there's evidence of possible stretching of the image (in comparison to the LD/DVD image), as well as possible vertical Pan & Scanning of the frame (again, in comparison to the LD/DVD image), meaning that there's a possibility the 1.77:1 transfer looks as good as it does because the transfer technicians pulled out a few tricks to make the image fit. This shouldn't be acceptable for a Blu-ray anymore than a quality P&S 4:3 transfer was for DVD.

Finally, a big part of the problem isn't that Vitali isn't defending the 1.77:1 transfer as "acceptable", but actually the ratio "preferred" by Kubrick, and even the one he composed the film for. His viewpoint has already affected both this Blu-ray and the book The Kubrick Archives. If his opinion is not corrected or overruled, there's the danger of 1.77:1 becoming the new permanent "official" aspect ratio for this film, possibly affecting re-releases and material about this film for years to come.
 

marsnkc

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AdrianTurner said:
Yawning's more like it.  
  
John Hodson said:
Quote:

I know how he feels...
"British phlegm is an excuse for sheer apathy" - David Thomas, The Telegraph, 16th February 2003. Ouch!I don't doubt for a second that you guys know how Stan is feeling. Next time you communicate with him, please remind him that, though this subject may be wearing a little thin, it's usual on a forum to extend the same courtesy to others as we expect for ourselves. These little sarcasms (the condescending 'insider' culture more appropriate to a PM than an open forum) are more worthy of the guy whose contribution to the discussion was the hugely enlightening "aspect ratios, blah, blah, blah" - not to people like yourselves. They tell us nothing, except to serve as a postscript to the implication in Adrian's initial post that we should be as satisfied as he with any reasonable ratio for the BD. Anything more would apparently be anal-retentive. There's a handy tool called a 'delete' button that most email carriers provide. That's what I use if something no longer interests me, or I feel a discussion is 'beneath' me (it always fascinates me when people who like to imagine themselves above it all feel compelled to take the trouble to tell the rest of the world). Just hit that button and let us plebs get on with it. I for one am hugely indebted to RAH and Torsten and all those who state positions pro and con and go to the trouble of explaining them. Otherwise where's the debate, and how do we learn? I've said it before; this forum is literally a free liberal education for non-sophistos (as Alex might have said) like myself, and I'm extremely grateful for it, and for the (as I've also said before) supernatural patience exhibited by Mr. Harris when dealing with even the most obtuse and antagonistic among us. (None of this should be construed as having any effect on my admiration for Adrian's books, especially his definitive, hugely entertaining bio of Robert Bolt).
 

John Hodson

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The written word being the slippery eel of interpretation that it surely is, I have to say for the record, right here and now (and not even in River City) that this humble plebeian prostrates himself regularly at the feet of those whose knowledge outstrips his own on this forum, which is pretty much everyone. I know my place.
My last comment was pretty much borne out of a slight frustration that happens - perhaps understandably - when old ground is trodden again, and again (and again), when that dead horse is being flogged unmercifully (which in itself is a subjective opinion), and should perhaps have remained skittering across my synapse rather than my keyboard.
My gran used to say: "If you've got nothing nice to say, say nowt." Wise woman my gran. Carry on.
 
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Just a little story...
I know a few members of the extended Kubrick family. Stanley agreed to take their wedding photos. I hope I'm not betraying their confidence but they told me the photos were terrible. It was said with affection and amusement.
He was just a guy, and he got stuff wrong now and then. Not saying he was wrong about Lyndon - but myths of his omnipotence are just that.
 

Robert Harris

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Originally Posted by Anthony Neilson
Just a little story...
I know a few members of the extended Kubrick family. Stanley agreed to take their wedding photos. I hope I'm not betraying their confidence but they told me the photos were terrible. It was said with affection and amusement.
He was just a guy, and he got stuff wrong now and then. Not saying he was wrong about Lyndon - but myths of his omnipotence are just that.
Extremely talented gentleman, but quite human.

We would have our phone calls several times a week, during the reconstruction and restoration of Spartacus, and as soon as we were past the problems of the day, and how to deal with them, his first question was how the Yankees were doing.

RAH
 
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Robert Harris said:
Extremely talented gentleman, but quite human. We would have our phone calls several times a week, during the reconstruction and restoration of Spartacus, and as soon as we were past the problems of the day, and how to deal with them, his first question was how the Yankees were doing. RAH 
That's nice to know that he was involved with SPARTACUS, despite having ambivalent feelings about it.On that note, I take it you've heard the rumours that Criterion are to release it on Blu. Don't suppose you care to comment..... ? :cool:
 

Robert Harris

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Originally Posted by Anthony Neilson
That's nice to know that he was involved with SPARTACUS, despite having ambivalent feelings about it.
On that note, I take it you've heard the rumours that Criterion are to release it on Blu. Don't suppose you care to comment..... ?
No comment. And not meant to be cagey. I know nothing.
 

Sam Posten

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Anthony Neilson said:
Just a little story...
I know a few members of the extended Kubrick family. Stanley agreed to take their wedding photos. I hope I'm not betraying their confidence but they told me the photos were terrible. It was said with affection and amusement.
He was just a guy, and he got stuff wrong now and then. Not saying he was wrong about Lyndon - but myths of his omnipotence are just that.
I quite like his Photo Essay of Chicago:
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/04/05/kubrick-chicago
But part of the challenge of photography is in editing out all but the best. I wonder how many stinkers he took to cultivate these, and likewise, the difference between shooting a city and a wedding can be immense....
 

Brandon Conway

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Originally Posted by Robert Harris
We would have our phone calls several times a week, during the reconstruction and restoration of Spartacus, and as soon as we were past the problems of the day, and how to deal with them, his first question was how the Yankees were doing.

RAH
Not a Yankee fan myself, but nice to know he got to see them win a few World Series again in 1996 and 1998 before he passed.
 

Yorkshire

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John Hodson said:
The written word being the slippery eel of interpretation that it surely is, I have to say for the record, right here and now (and not even in River City) that this humble plebeian prostrates himself regularly at the feet of those whose knowledge outstrips his own on this forum, which is pretty much everyone. I know my place.
My last comment was pretty much borne out of a slight frustration that happens - perhaps understandably - when old ground is trodden again, and again (and again), when that dead horse is being flogged unmercifully (which in itself is a subjective opinion), and should perhaps have remained skittering across my synapse rather than my keyboard.
My gran used to say: "If you've got nothing nice to say, say nowt." Wise woman my gran. Carry on.
Bloody Lancastrians, nicking our sayings.
Listen lad, it's:
Hear all, see all, say nowt, tak' all, keep all, gie nowt, 'n' if tha' ever does 'owt for nowt do it for thysen.
In relation to this discussion, I think we can agree:
It’s nather nowt na' summat.
'appen.
Steve W
 

marsnkc

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Anthony Neilson said:
He was just a guy, and he got stuff wrong now and then. Not saying he was wrong about Lyndon - but myths of his omnipotence are just that.
His omnipotence ended for me with Barry Lyndon. Either Stanley was so ahead of me (lots of opinions out there defending Eyes Wide Shut as being a 'groundbreaker') that I still haven't caught up with him or he lost it, I don't know. The movie The Shining captured none of the bleak, oppressive atmosphere of a book that scared the living you-know-what out of me. SK may have had his own vision for it, but the result falls flat, while Jack doing the Here's Johnny bit was one of those spur of the moment (I hope) bits of puerile humor that serve only to take one out of it, fatal where one's involvement is paramount.
I'll give it another shot one of these days, but only the first half of FMJ works for me, while the Eyes Wide Shut that we have can only be explained by those who (here we go again!) claim that had SK lived, he would have reedited, changed or added to it. From a purely technical point of view, the scene in the poolroom(?) with Tom Cruise and Sidney Pollack is excruciating to watch. An actor folding his arms is usually a sign that he's uncomfortable and doesn't know what to do with himself. Here we have both 'actors' with arms folded standing facing each other for an interminable amount of time. Because it's Kubrick, one looks for reasons. Did he deliberately keep actors who are untrained in stagecraft (no hiding behind tight shots or cross-cutting there!) in a long shot for so long a time in order to make them uncomfortable on the set and capture that? That might be an explanation, except that the Pollack character is in his own home and supposedly in control of himself and the situation. The scene comes across as awkward and amateurish and I feel that Kubrick just didn't know how, or was too ill to think clearly (or take the trouble) to block/stage) it more effectively. The king may, in this instance at least, be wearing no clothes.
By contrast, there isn't a frame of his earlier movies that fails to delight and astonish me. A master in full control of his craft.
 

Rob LoVerde

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Robert Harris said:
Extremely talented gentleman, but quite human. We would have our phone calls several times a week, during the reconstruction and restoration of Spartacus, and as soon as we were past the problems of the day, and how to deal with them, his first question was how the Yankees were doing. RAH 
The sweetest remembrance of Stanley Kubrick that I've ever heard.
 

Robert Harris

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Originally Posted by Rob LoVerde
The sweetest remembrance of Stanley Kubrick that I've ever heard.
As told to me by editor Robert Lawrence, to help SK relax during production, he would pitch a hardball. On many occasions, Lawrence became the catcher, and the playing field was a long office hallway. Workers knew better than to simply walk out of their offices. When they heard the ball hit the glove, they would peek out of their doorway to see if movement was save, as they didn't want to be in the line of fire.

RAH
 

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