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Holy Grail: SE Glitch thread, part 2


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#1 of 53 OFFLINE   Brian York

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Posted February 22 2002 - 05:24 AM

This is a follow-on to the original Holy Grail problem thread. People are starting to post queries again about this disk, and the original thread is HUGE. Hopefully, this will give everyone the answers they need without having to generate a bunch of new posts...

Sign The HOLY GRAIL PETITION!!

02/22/02 UPDATE:

The replacement disc appears to universally(so far) fix the spontaneous subtitle problem. However the first Sweedish subtitle seems to be a "casualty of war".

ALSO.....CTHV has YET to publicly acknowledge the disc has ANY problems, and the efforts of myriad people have failed to turn up any distinguishing marks that can be used to identify if a given copy is from the original or corrected pressings.


Summary of events(originally posted by elengineer):


1) MPATHG:SE is released (duh )

2) Posts start to appear at the Home Theatre Forum, DVDTalk, and at Pythonline about possible glitches.

3) By comparing notes, fans discover that two apparent glitches exist:
a) The very first sweedish subtitle "Mønti Pythøn ik den Hølie Grãilen" is missing
b) Apparently spontaneous subtitles keep popping up, even if the subtitle stream is set to "off"

4) BYork begins assembling a list of players both affected and not affected by the spontaneous subtitling problem

5) Steve Tannehill at the HTF attempts contact with the Pythons through the webmaster, Daz, at Pythonline.

6) John Goldstone, the Python's producer replies through Daz that the spontaneous subtitles are most likely a player problem and not due to the DVD. He also doesn't believe the first sweedish subtitle is missing.

7) Shayne Lebrun at HTF takes screen caps to show the omission of the sweedish subtitle.

8) The list of affected players has grown tremendously. It now includes models from virtually every major manufacturer. Most prominently featured are models by Toshiba, and ironically, Sony, which is the parent of CTHE, the company who released the DVD, amongst many others. This widespread list shows that the fault cannot be attributed solely to "player issues".

9) All of these issues and glitches start to be discussed more heavily at the Pythonline board (which has since become the conduit for official messages passed on from Mr. Goldstone). Behind the scenes discussions continue with Mr. Goldstone.

10) Sony, CTHE, and Mr. Goldstone finally realize they have a problem and begin holding "work sessions" to find and fix the problems.

11) TPTB request, through Daz at Pythonline, that the fans submit a list of affected players, i.e. BYork's list.

12) CTHE's customer service (CS) meanwhile, has evidently been told to start accepting returned discs, and to tell people that replacement DVDs will be available "sometime after the week of Thanksgiving". This is obviously just an attempt to placate the consumers by giving them a target date, since in light of (11), TPTB haven't even isolated the causes of the problems at this point, let alone know an exact date that fixed replacements will be available.

13) Daz, Pythonline's webmaster passes on the "offical" email from Mr. Goldstone. This email states that TPTB think they have a fix for the missing sweedish subtitle, but need more information from the consumers regarding the spontaneous subtitling problem.

14) BYork asks for and starts to receive more specific data (exact timestamps. exact subtitles, which subtitle stream, etc) from people at HTF, DVDTalk, and Pythonline. SirNotAppearingInThisFilm at Pythonline did a notable job of going through the entire movie at least twice, not including rewinds/FFs, etc to provide the first complete list of timestamps for the errors, and the apparent exact relation of the spontaneous subtitles and the "Killer Rabbit" feature.

15) CTHE's CS, still apparently running on autopilot, keeps stating that the only options available for people to get replacements for their defective DVDs is the following:
a) The consumer must pay to ship CTHE's defective DVDs back to CTHE.
b) Take the defective DVD back to the store once replacements hit store shelves. (Despite the fact someone may have misplaced their reciept, the DVD will have been opened, it will have been at least a month for some people between purchase and attempted return, some poeple bought their copies on-line, some people are out of the country, etc...)

16) At this point, it has been about a week since anybody has heard anything from Mr. Goldstone or CTHE regarding the status of the repair process.

17) Amazingly enough, these "Glitchy" DVDs remain on store shelves.

18) "Replacement" DVDs have been received by a few people as of 12/06. In at least some cases, there is no difference between them and the original, and ALL continue to be missing the first Sweedish subtitle


Main threads on relevant sites:

Pythonline:
http://bbs.artistdir....hreadid=662965

HomeTheaterForum:
Original Glitch Thread
Glitch Thread part 2(THIS Thread)

DVDTalk
Original Glitch Thread
Glitch Thread, part 2

Other Threads:
http://www.hometheat....ML/003789.html
http://www.hometheat....ML/032231.html
http://www.hometheat....ML/032569.html

Link to Screen Caps:
http://www.tangozone...olygrailse.html

CTHE Customer service email address:
CTHV_Customer_Service@spe.sony.com


#2 of 53 OFFLINE   Brian McHale

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Posted February 22 2002 - 05:45 AM

I hope we can keep this issue alive. I am a huge Monty Python fan, but I haven't bought this disc yet only because of the problems. If the only concern were the missing "Sweedish" subtitle, I might break down and get it. However, there is no way I'm going to buy this if there's any chance I'm going to have to turn around and exchange it. (I have a Toshiba SD-2109, which does have the spontaneous sub-title problem.)
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#3 of 53 OFFLINE   Ken Stuart

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Posted February 27 2002 - 07:35 AM

It would be helpful if people started posting the names of stores that have the corrected version.

For example, has anyone received a corrected version from Amazon ??

#4 of 53 OFFLINE   Shayne Lebrun

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Posted February 27 2002 - 09:26 AM

You'd almost think this was a Monty Python sketch.

Right, this DVD's defective.
No it's not.
What?
It isn't.
It is too! Look, the subtitles keep popping on.
Wot, that's a feature, it is.
A feature?
To help teach you foreign languages.

#5 of 53 OFFLINE   Eric Peterson

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Posted February 27 2002 - 09:39 AM

I purchased the original disc the week that it came out and after seeing the bug, I returned it to the Best Buy that I bought it at. The clerk gave me a hard time, because it was opened software and said that I could only exchange it for an identical title. After explaining the problem and telling her to call CTHV if she didn't belive me, she finally offered to let me select another title for replacement. I then waited until Tuesday of this week, when I was back at the same Best Buy. It appeared that there was all new stock in, so I took another crack at it. However, I managed to still buy another faulty disc. I'm planning on taking it back again, and I'll just keep replacing it until I get a corrected version. I realize that it's a hassle, but to me it's simpler than mailing the disc back to them and praying that it doesn't get lost somewhere.

My suggestion is that everybody do this and maybe CTHV will get the message when they start receiving box loads of these discs back from retailers. Their handling of this problem is absolutely atrotious. I don't see why I should have to pay more of my money to return a faulty disc. Why can't they handle this like FOX did on the faulty Cleopatra disc? I suppose their argument is that anybody could call and get a full movie for free instead of a half movie for free.

As a side note, the price sticker was placed over the top of another sticker on the packaging (Something about movie points?). After peeling off the price sticker, I found out that the offer ended in early January, pretty much identifying that it was an original pressing. I'll make sure to buy a copy without that sticker this time.

Sorry if I rambled, but I'm kinda PO'd.

I'll report back if I have any more problems making the exchange at Best Buy.

#6 of 53 OFFLINE   Brian McHale

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Posted February 27 2002 - 10:10 AM

I think you hit the nail on the head with respect to why this isn't being handled like the Cleopatra problem. I don't think there's very many people who would bother to ask for a replacement disc 2 of Cleopatra (2nd half of the movie) if they didn't actually own the set. What would be the point?

Unfortunately, there would probably be quite a few people who would be interested in getting The Holy Grail for free. You'd be giving up most of the extras, but you'd still be getting a great movie for nothing.

That said, this certainly could have been handled much better.

CTHV: take note, you've got someone who wants to give you money, but won't until he can be sure of getting a non-defective product. (And I'm sure there are many people out there like me who have held off buying this until a satisfactory solution is arrived at.)
Brian

#7 of 53 OFFLINE   Michael Dueppen

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Posted February 27 2002 - 10:59 AM

I'd love to own this movie but held off because of the defects. It would be pretty much impossible for me to exchange it if I got one from the earlier batch.
I guess I'll wait another couple months until I get it.
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#8 of 53 OFFLINE   Sam Graves

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Posted February 27 2002 - 01:13 PM

This is a disc I really, really want. However, I cannot brng myself to purchase it until Columbia acknowldeges a problem and replaces the first "Swedish" subtitle.

#9 of 53 OFFLINE   Lars Vermundsberget

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Posted February 27 2002 - 10:54 PM

I haven't bought this one yet, even though I want it very much. Since I've waited for so long, I guess I'll just wait a few more months or a year or how long it takes to fix that problem...

#10 of 53 OFFLINE   Mark_vdH

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Posted February 27 2002 - 11:24 PM

The European version will be released next week (04/03), with the same special features. It will be interesting to see if the glitches have been corrected.
If everything is corrected, then maybe a fixed R1 DVD is also on the way....
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#11 of 53 OFFLINE   JustinW

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Posted February 28 2002 - 01:32 AM

I ordered this from Amazon and shortly after found Pt1 of this thread then numerous other reports on other sites, I then tried to cancel my order but it was too late.

The order turned up a few days ago and as much as I was dreading the thought of it, I watched it and I didn't get one sub-title popup anywhere in the movie although the sweedish sub-title at the start was definitely missing.

PS I have a Toshiba SD-2109.

#12 of 53 OFFLINE   Dave P

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Posted February 28 2002 - 02:41 AM

Put me on the list as one who won't buy the disc until they fix it (i.e., swedish subtitle).

#13 of 53 OFFLINE   Eric Peterson

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Posted March 02 2002 - 10:31 AM

I'm back.

I returned to Best Buy with my 2nd bad disc in hand and I didn't even bring my receipt this time. The lady asked no questions and said grab another copy. When I volunteered the information as to why I was returning the disc, she simply stared at me like I was crazy. I asked her to put the information on the return sheet, so that someone would know why, but I'm sure that she didn't.

Anyway, I grabbed another copy and made sure that it didn't have the movie points sticker on the cover. TA! DA!, I got a good copy. I am now much happier.

My recommendation is that everybody do this, even if your original copy works. What's to say that when you upgrade your old player that it will work then. Maybe when Columbia starts receiving boxes of bad discs, they will make an official statement and stop charging people for a mistake that should have been entirely on their shoulders.

My job is complete, now it's your turn.

#14 of 53 OFFLINE   Rob T

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Posted March 02 2002 - 05:02 PM

I have a friend who is a big Monty Python fan. He was going to buy the disc when it came out, but I told him of the problem so he ecided to hold of until CTHV officially fixes the problem. I do believe he's still waiting to get a good copy.

#15 of 53 OFFLINE   Calvin Cullen

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Posted March 02 2002 - 05:17 PM

The copy I purchased through the Columbia House DVD club in mid-February is the corrected version.

#16 of 53 OFFLINE   Brett Jason

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Posted March 03 2002 - 07:33 AM

Returned mine to Best Buy today. I had bought it around release date, and never opened it till last week to see if I had the subtitle glitch on both my players, which I did. I found a copy without the rewards point sticker (about half of the 10 copies or so had it).The Customer Service person at BB told me since it was more than 30 days old, she would have to check with her supervisor (key dramatic music cue), but then came back and said they'd make a "1 time exception". Then she proceeds to tear open the seal on the new one, saying it was a "federal law". I felt like asking her to name the statute Posted Image Didn't matter much to me, but it was just a little dramatic. Anyway, came home and checked it, no subtitles, so it is indeed the corrected version.

#17 of 53 OFFLINE   Brian McHale

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Posted March 04 2002 - 04:01 AM

I finally got the chance to see this; I borrowered it from a friend. After the subtitles popped up the first time, I just left them on. What a great job they did on this (apart from the subtitle issues, obviously)!

The more I think about it, I will be waiting until a completely fixed version comes out. Not only do I want the first "Sweedish" subtitle, but I want to be able to turn subtitles on from my remote. When watching Monty Python, you really need to be able to turn subtitles on/off multiple times during the movie. I couldn't believe how much of the dialog and songs I never understood before!

CTHV: fix this disc set and I'll buy it immediately; don't fix it, and you'll have a lot of frustrated fans who WANT TO GIVE YOU MONEY!
Brian

#18 of 53 OFFLINE   Michael Sliger

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Posted March 04 2002 - 04:06 AM

I picked up my replacement copy (from CTHE, shipped from Deluxe Video in WI) at my local UPS warehouse this morning. I haven't opened it yet (no point since there is no DVD player here at work), but I was annoyed to see an expired (01/03/02) VIP Movie Points sticker on the packaging. Has anyone who has recieved the "corrected" version found this sticker on their package? If not, I may leave the wrapping on this box and see if I can talk a local retailer into an exchange.

Added comments: I went ahead and opened it. I don't see any spontaneous subtitles using my Hollywood + card to output the signal to my TV. The subtitles are locked out during play as expected. No inital "Sweedish" subtitle either. Posted Image

I did notice that the case changed. My first copy had the silk screened sides of the disks facing each other. This copy has those surfaces both facing the front of the case. I realise that this doesn't help anyone until the package is opened and may not have been a consistent situation for the inital pressings either, but I'll pass it along anyway. Posted Image

#19 of 53 OFFLINE   Aubrey

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Posted March 12 2002 - 02:00 PM

here's some help for the canucks in the crowd. I've got a canadian address for you to return your disks to. After a third trip to future shop, I'm just going to bite the bullet and send it off.

CTHE - Canada
ATTN: Angie Baker
5650 Yonge Street
North York, Ontario M2M 4G3

#20 of 53 OFFLINE   Andrew Bunk

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Posted March 14 2002 - 05:28 PM

My replacement copy also came from the CTHE distributor in Wisconsin, and it did have the rewards sticker on it, but nevertheless it did work fine-no subtitles.

I have a Toshiba SD-1600. Also, both the original and fixed versions worked fine on a Toshiba SD-1700.

For those who may be waiting to send there defective discs in, I know it sucks to have to pay for shipping. I actually paid $3.90 to ship it Priority Mail with tracking so I could prove they got it.

But in the end I felt like it was worth it, because I got the replacement within 10 days of the day I mailed mine, which is pretty good. And it's nice knowing I have a copy I can watch without having to have my finger on the subtitles button.

Not the fairest solution, but at least there's closure!
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