A Few Words About A few words about...™ Blood and Black Lace -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

Mario Bava's Blood and Black Lace (1964), starring American actor Cameron Mitchell, appearing as those he's walked onto the wrong set, is one of those films loved by those who appreciate the genre.

I'm not a fan of this film, as (among other things) I find the acting magnificently problematic, but to give Arrow credit, they've brought a beautifully rendered Blu-ray to these shores.

Have I mentioned that I abhor post-sync dialogue?

Once again, as is the state of affairs for these releases, the fans of the genre will be more than pleased.

Image - 5

Audio - 5 (full post-sync)

Pass / Fail - Pass

RAH

Why did I read here rather loudly that this release had been put on hold in the US?

He might have gotten a press screener from Arrow, dispatched before the U.S. problem arose. You'll still be able to get it from the UK.

Bob Cashill said:

He might have gotten a press screener from Arrow, dispatched before the U.S. problem arose. You'll still be able to get it from the UK.

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Already ordered it from the UK as soon as I heard about the problem.

I knew it'd look good, but it's exciting to know that it meets your standards, Mr. Harris. Thank you.

I believe, like most Italian films of the time, that it was shot silent with the express purpose of looping in the dialogue later. Some of those films were even made with actors speaking different languages knowing that a dub would be created for each territory expressly for export. Even the native Italian track was created this way, so it's not really any more authentic than any of the other language dubs created at the time.

I always find it preferable to watch many of these post sync films with the Italian track. That way, it's a lot harder to detect when the sync is off and when line delivery is poor. Black Sunday for instance I find impossible to enjoy in English even though the original cut was fully dubbed, but it's an absolute blast in Italian. I've not seen Blood and Black Lace but I'll be starting out with the Italian track on that one too.

I generally try the Italian track, and even being fully cognizant of the manner of production, I'm never comfortable watching them. Rather like trying to view a great Bergman classic in English.


RAH

I expected to feel much the same when I first started experimenting but was able to get used to things quickly. For cases like The Big Gundown, where the original cut was not dubbed into English, I find it essential as the original cut is far superior to the U.S. version. Of course it's no advantage to lose Lee Van Cleef's dubbing but whatcha gonna do?

The Bergman films were all shot with the actors speaking Swedish. Many of the Bava and Argento films from the 60s-70s had actors performing in various languages all in the same scene. In that case, the Italian track may look more in sync for the actors actually performing in Italian, but then Karl Malden and James Franciscus (to use Argento's CAT O' NINE TAILS as an example) are badly dubbed in that version as they were performing their roles in English.

I don't think the comparison holds water as these Italian films were designed for export and shot with actors performing in different languages to be post-synced, whereas Ingmar Bergman's films were not. They were shot and performed in Swedish. There is most definitely an "original language track" for those films but not so much for the Italian giallo films.

Watched it the other night, i agree it looks stunning.

Watched it last night and was completely stunned at how incredible it looks and sounds. This is quintessential "Giallo" and Arrow has outdone themselves in all aspects of this release. Transfer and extra features are top tier and the "collectible steelbook" is one of the nicest I have seen. Arrow understands the fans.

I agree with you completely concerning post-sync dialogue, something that is even easier to discern on home systems than it would normally be in a theatre. I saw The Loved One two weeks ago at the TCM Classic Film Festival, and even in a theatre it sounded to me that the entire film had been post-synced, which hurt the overall impact of the comedy.

Perhaps one of the experts on here can explain to these guys about framing on this movie:



http://thelatarniaforums.yuku.com/topic/13012/BLOOD-BLACK-LACE-definitive-edition-we-hope?page=1#.VTOakKhwbIU



quite a long thread but I am sure many will find amusing.

Amusing, then tedious with the usual Latarnia name calling as everyone digs into their positions. With Arrow unlikely to do anything about what appears to be a non-situation, enjoy what's been offered--a nose being out of frame for half a second isn't end times

It's no more tedious there than at the other board where people behave like they know everything when they, in fact, no nothing. It's shocking how they know nothing but continue to pontificate as if they do. And one person there made what was I believe a rather astounding comment - that this transfer had been zoom boxed or whatever they think they mean, and not ONE person responded to it. I would find it hard to believe they'd done that, but that said there are a few shots in the film where the camera is adjusting to keep height in the frame but the height is cut off - and believe me, I know how movies are framed and am NOT one of those who think if the top of a head is trimmed that that's a mistake. But when adjustment are being made with the camera then something is weird when what it's adjusting for isn't adjusted if you get my meaning. It's minor, but one wonders if they did zoom in a little.


The color is terrific, and it's a really fine transfer of a weird movie that has a lot of style. The comparing it to the older German DVD is specious and ridiculous. This is a fine Blu-ray. It's wacky to me the waffling done over the years by Tim (expert) Lucas about the ratio and the complete ignoring of Joe Dante's previous information that his 16mm tech print is hard-matted at 1.85. I can only tell you that Mr. Bava knew who the audience was for his films, and Blood and Black Lace was absolutely always going International. It was shown here ONLY in 1.85 for whatever that's worth. And yes, if you tightened to that on THIS transfer it would not be acceptable, which is why I wish someone would answer the guy who stated unequivocally that it HAS been zoomed. IF it has, I'm sure Mr. White won't be acknowledging, but it would be nice to know nonetheless.


But for fans of the film - it looks great and sounds great.

The German DVD was apparently taken from an element with an approximate hard matted ratio of 1.80:1 (the film however, was definitely not shot with a matte, nor were original release prints hard matted). It transfers so much that you can at times see two or even three edges of the frame at once, and much of the film is not centered (titles are shifted right due to an unequal gain on the left). Certainly the Arrow has been "zoomed" compared to that DVD, as it should have been. Importantly, the height and foot room remains essentially the same as on the print; there is only a sliver of difference. So even on that print you'd still get the head trimming you've mentioned despite the camera movement.


The issue of contention is the reduction in side information compared to the DVD. One side feels the same amount of side information the DVD shows should be on the BD (again, despite the fact it goes right to the edges of the frame), and the other side feels that most of that information would have been masked by the projector gate, and thus Arrow were right to remove it. Which AR is correct doesn't really factor into it as no one is concerned about the difference in height. Arrow's unofficial statement on this missing information was as follows:

4. In order to achieve the intended 1.66:1 framing, as much image area was retained as possible for all four sides to avoid encroaching frame lines or leakage from the join/sprocket areas. All four sides of the image have to be accounted for during this process - you can't alter the shape just because you'd like to allow for more image.

5. And to illustrate the importance of point (4), the German disc has transferred the entire print area without any masking at all. The fact that such masking should have been applied during projection/telecine is demonstrated by visible light leakage and frame lines at the edges, which would certainly have been masked during cinema projection. There are also instances where a different element was used and incorrectly zoomed out in an attempt to fill the equally incorrect 1.78:1 ratio - which is why there are certain sections in the film where the Arrow disc shows more information than the German one. Which is why the German disc is not a reliable reference.

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Tim Lucas went over the aspect ratio debate at his Facebook page.


My copy from the UK arrived today so I haven't gotten a chance to watch it yet. If you want the film you had better get it because it's doubtful it'll be available in America since VCI has the rights to it. It's also not known if future pressings will be Region A & B.

haineshisway said:

... Joe Dante's previous information that his 16mm tech print is hard-matted at 1.85.

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Strangely, the alternate opening sequence that is an extra on Arrow's Blu-Ray and which is sourced from Dante's 16mm print is 1.37 and not 1.85.


Anyway, watched this disc yesterday and it is stunningly beautiful.

EddieLarkin said:

The German DVD was apparently taken from an element with an approximate hard matted ratio of 1.80:1 (the film however, was definitely not shot with a matte, nor were original release prints hard matted). It transfers so much that you can at times see two or even three edges of the frame at once, and much of the film is not centered (titles are shifted right due to an unequal gain on the left). Certainly the Arrow has been "zoomed" compared to that DVD, as it should have been. Importantly, the height and foot room remains essentially the same as on the print; there is only a sliver of difference. So even on that print you'd still get the head trimming you've mentioned despite the camera movement.


The issue of contention is the reduction in side information compared to the DVD. One side feels the same amount of side information the DVD shows should be on the BD (again, despite the fact it goes right to the edges of the frame), and the other side feels that most of that information would have been masked by the projector gate, and thus Arrow were right to remove it. Which AR is correct doesn't really factor into it as no one is concerned about the difference in height. Arrow's unofficial statement on this missing information was as follows:

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No argument for me about the side information on the DVD - it's wrong, it's stupid and the Arrow is perfectly framed on the sides as it frames out information you would never have seen in the theater.