Jump to content



Sign up for a free account to remove the pop-up ads

Signing up for an account is fast and free. As a member you can join in the conversation, enter contests and remove the pop-up ads that guests get. Click here to create your free account.

Photo
- - - - -

The Wolverine - July 26, 2013


  • You cannot start a new topic
  • Please log in to reply
86 replies to this topic

#61 of 87 OFFLINE   Edwin-S

Edwin-S

    Producer



  • 5,738 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 20 2000

Posted August 02 2013 - 08:33 PM

I took it that he didn't want to die then and he didn't want to die later. He knew Logan was immortal and wanted to use him for his own end. He miscalculated by assuming Logan would welcome death if it gave him peace from his demons.
"You bring a horse for me?" "Looks like......looks like we're shy of one horse." "No.......You brought two too many."

#62 of 87 OFFLINE   DaveF

DaveF

    Moderator



  • 15,177 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 04 2001
  • Real Name:David Fischer
  • LocationOne Loudoun, Ashburn, VA

Posted August 02 2013 - 09:23 PM

If you think about it, Yashida was set up from the start as somewhat dishonorable because he was afraid to commit the ritual suicide with his comrades. That planted the little seed that this man wasn't ready to accept death, then or seventy years later.

I don't know. To me, it read very different. Yashida was the one who saw that Logan was trapped and it wasn't honorable to let him die caged, rather than making his own choice in his final moments. Through that, he lived. He came across as honorable (and sensible for not sticking a sword in his own gut)

I didn't take it that way at all; I took it as though as a young man, he became fascinated with the idea that Logan could 'live forever', and as time went on, and he aged, he thought more and more about the man he knew who couldn't die and didn't age.  And as his empire grew, his desire to stay in control of it ate at him until he started pouring money into the chase of the fountain of  youth. Honorable or not, his age and mortality and desire to live won out over any honor.

Yashida was young and noble. Then he was old and monstrous. No in between. No development. Poor storytelling. Which is a pity because there was the spark of something much stronger there. The deeper flaw, I think was not allowing Logan to enjoy being mortal. He should have wanted to pass on, but deny himself this peace to prevent a greater monster from living. This irony, of the suffering hero, is great stuff. They had it, it was telegraphed in the beginning. But then it was dropped. And the story was simply Wolverine is a bull-headed contrarian. You say up, he says down. He says he's tired of living; you say he's tired of living; he retorts he can't get enough living. It was an enjoyable movie. But it could have been X-Men caliber.

#63 of 87 OFFLINE   Sean Bryan

Sean Bryan

    Sean Bryan



  • 2,984 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 31 1969
  • Real Name:Sean

Posted August 02 2013 - 09:46 PM

I'm no expert on the matter, but it seems like you're applying Western values to a Japanese soldier from WWII.I'm not saying he was jerk, or a "bad guy" back then. He clearly was being decent "from our perspective" by letting prisoners go. But again, the ritual suicide was a cultural thing that his fellow soldiers followed and he didn't. In that moment he wanted to live more than he wanted to follow that tradition, or cultural imperative, for honor or whatever. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, certainly not from my 21st century western perspective. This "reasonable" choice he made at that time (life over honor), grew over time so that 70 years later he made a much more unreasonable choice (life over whatever the hell he had to do to keep it). The reveal is a bit surprising, but I had no problem imagining that his desire to live and his arrogance that his life can be more useful to the world than the life of someone like Logan lead him make make some extreme and selfish decisions as his life neared its end. I think this would have worked better if it was revealed before his fight with Logan. Some exposition to better address his choices and plans for Logan prior to their confrontation would have given it more emotional heft. That's pretty much my main criticism of the movie. I also would have liked a more extended battle with the ninjas in the snowy village, but I know that's coming in the directors cut.

Edited by Sean Bryan, August 02 2013 - 09:49 PM.

I don't believe in transcending the genre, I believe IN the genre - Joss Whedon

#64 of 87 OFFLINE   DaveF

DaveF

    Moderator



  • 15,177 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 04 2001
  • Real Name:David Fischer
  • LocationOne Loudoun, Ashburn, VA

Posted August 03 2013 - 05:00 AM

I'm no expert on the matter, but it seems like you're applying Western values to a Japanese soldier from WWII.

I am. I'm an American watching a typical summer Hollywood movie. I interpret it through my normal values.The problem is that by freeing Logan, he isn't dishonorable or much less evil. I see here ritual suicude as the choice to end your own life in the face of certain death. Yashida first freed Logan. Then he found death wasn't certain.It is a long distance from evil monster.Contrast to how clearly Magneto is understood in the first two X Men movies. Wolverine is inferior in storytelling. Which is unfortunate because it was strong and nearly pulled off something pretty great.As for ninjas, I needed less of the Japanese Rhythmic Dance Team in this movie. So much cartoony spinning. :)


Edited by DaveF, August 03 2013 - 10:09 AM.


#65 of 87 OFFLINE   Sean Bryan

Sean Bryan

    Sean Bryan



  • 2,984 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 31 1969
  • Real Name:Sean

Posted August 03 2013 - 09:48 AM

I wanted to get a better understanding of the cultural significance of ritual suicide by warriors in Asian culture and read a few interesting things. I had more detailed info and links, but the stupid iPad keeps refreshing the screen as I'm putting together the post and clearing everything. Anyway, the essence of what I've read is this:

The act of Hara kiri is a ritual suidice to mainten honor.Seppuku (切腹?, "stomach-cutting") is a form of Japanese ritual suicide by disembowelment. Seppuku was originally reserved only for samurai. Part of the samurai honor code, seppuku was used voluntarily by samurai to die with honor rather than fall into the hands of their enemies, as a form of capital punishment for samurai who have committed serious offenses, and for reasons that shamed them. Seppuku is performed by plunging a sword into the abdomen and moving the sword left to right in a slicing motion.

In the world of the warrior, seppuku was a deed of bravery that was admirable in a samurai who knew he was defeated, disgraced, or mortally wounded. It meant that he could end his days with his transgressions wiped away and with his reputation not merely intact but actually enhanced. The cutting of the abdomen released the samurai’s spirit in the most dramatic fashion, but it was an extremely painful and unpleasant way to die, and sometimes the samurai who was performing the act asked a loyal comrade to cut off his head at the moment of agony.

So, seppuku was practiced for a variety of reasons, but the reason most relevant to this discussion is having an honorable death when captured or defeated by the enemy. Or to reclaim honor when thought to have been dishonored (by failure or defeat). Apparently, the Japanese government pushed some pretty strong propaganda during the era of World War II that surrender and defeat was dishonorable and praising examples of seppuku by soldiers. Yes, young Yashida was shown as doing a "decent" thing by letting prisoners go when they saw they were defeated. When it came to the moment of committing seppuku with his fellow warriors, he hesitated. He seemed to value the possibility of living more than the concepts of honor that been predominant in the culture at that time. Is there anything "wrong" with that? Is that supposed to make us think he's "bad"? Hell no. Are we even supposed to be thinking about that during the rest of the movie? Nope, I don't think so. When it comes down to the reveal at the end the question arises, "Where the heck did THAT comes from? He was such a nice guy. Gosh, he even let some prisoners go. So how could he turn out to be a selfish prick just 70 short years later?". Yes it is a long distance from being a evil monster, about 70 years worth of distance. We don't see the process of this extreme evolution of his character. And the way it was presented in the movie is certainly an abrupt reveal. I guess my point is that, looking back, we do at see the subtle seed of this being planted with the choice of life over "honor", a very reasonable and human choice for that man to have made at that time. But his living was more important than the Bushido code of honor in death. And over decades of building that life and then nearing the end of it, he decided that his life was more important and useful to the world than the "meaningless life" of the one who saved him all those years ago. Now he chose betrayal and murder to hang onto his life instead of accepting death. They guy wasn't "evil" for the sake of standing around and twirling his mustache, but he committed to an evil path in order hang onto his life, his power, and his legacy, and all of the "good" he could do for the world. Again, I think it would have played better if instead of going for the surprise reveal at the climax of the third act it was a surprise reveal at the beginning or middle of the third. The fight between Logan and Silver Samurai would have had more emotional resonance.
I don't believe in transcending the genre, I believe IN the genre - Joss Whedon

#66 of 87 OFFLINE   DaveF

DaveF

    Moderator



  • 15,177 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 04 2001
  • Real Name:David Fischer
  • LocationOne Loudoun, Ashburn, VA

Posted August 04 2013 - 07:56 AM

IAgain, I think it would have played better if instead of going for the surprise reveal at the climax of the third act it was a surprise reveal at the beginning or middle of the third. The fight between Logan and Silver Samurai would have had more emotional resonance.

i agree with everything you said. I would have liked more time on Yashida and Yukio's stories, and less on all the other characters, including Mariko.Unlike Edwin, I did enjoy the bullet train sequence. It was fun and a change from other recent action movies.

#67 of 87 OFFLINE   Malcolm R

Malcolm R

    Executive Producer



  • 11,799 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 08 2002
  • Real Name:Malcolm
  • LocationVermont

Posted August 12 2013 - 08:54 AM

Again, I think it would have played better if instead of going for the surprise reveal at the climax of the third act it was a surprise reveal at the beginning or middle of the third. The fight between Logan and Silver Samurai would have had more emotional resonance.

 

I didn't think it was that much of a surprise. As soon as the old man made his proposal to Logan, and was rebuffed, I assumed there was a back-up plan to take what he wanted by force. Then, when the blueprints for the Silver Samurai were revealed, I knew the old man would be inside the suit. Sure enough....


The purpose of an education is to replace an empty mind with an open mind.

#68 of 87 OFFLINE   Sam Favate

Sam Favate

    Producer



  • 5,172 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 03 2004
  • Real Name:Sam Favate

Posted August 12 2013 - 01:47 PM

Rumor is Jackman could make $100 million for four more Wolverine movies:

 

http://www.blastr.co...-wolverine-deal

 

For all the talk of Christian Bale being offered tons of money for another appearance as Batman, this would likely be the biggest deal in movie history.

 

It's encouraging that Fox is planning long term for X-Men franchise.



#69 of 87 OFFLINE   Sean Bryan

Sean Bryan

    Sean Bryan



  • 2,984 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 31 1969
  • Real Name:Sean

Posted August 12 2013 - 05:13 PM

"Interesting"I think it's a good possibility they may want him on X-Force. Wolverine wasn't part of the original team, but he's been a main player in the more recent runs. I wouldn't mind another solo film as well. Maybe a story following his and Yukio's adventures in the time between The Wolverine and the "Two Years Later" airport scene in the credits.
I don't believe in transcending the genre, I believe IN the genre - Joss Whedon

#70 of 87 OFFLINE   DavidJ

DavidJ

    Screenwriter



  • 2,685 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 23 2001
  • Real Name:David

Posted August 13 2013 - 10:03 AM

As much as I like Wolverine as a character and even though I like Jackman and his take on the character, I'm ready for a fresh start with another actor. 



#71 of 87 OFFLINE   Sean Bryan

Sean Bryan

    Sean Bryan



  • 2,984 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 31 1969
  • Real Name:Sean

Posted August 29 2013 - 08:18 PM

Mangold comments on the extended cut. Hopefully, this will be included with the theatrical release (branched) on BD as Mangold suggestsimage.jpg
I don't believe in transcending the genre, I believe IN the genre - Joss Whedon

#72 of 87 OFFLINE   Sam Favate

Sam Favate

    Producer



  • 5,172 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 03 2004
  • Real Name:Sam Favate

Posted August 30 2013 - 04:41 AM

Anyone know the release date for the blu-ray? I've seen Dec 3 and Nov 12 mentioned.



#73 of 87 OFFLINE   Sean Bryan

Sean Bryan

    Sean Bryan



  • 2,984 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 31 1969
  • Real Name:Sean

Posted August 30 2013 - 07:35 AM

I haven't heard a definitive date yet
I don't believe in transcending the genre, I believe IN the genre - Joss Whedon

#74 of 87 OFFLINE   Sean Bryan

Sean Bryan

    Sean Bryan



  • 2,984 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 31 1969
  • Real Name:Sean

Posted November 05 2013 - 08:13 AM

Release date for the BD is December 3. So less than a month until fans get to see the extended version. The extended version is only going to in the collector's edition release, I think.
I don't believe in transcending the genre, I believe IN the genre - Joss Whedon

#75 of 87 OFFLINE   Sean Bryan

Sean Bryan

    Sean Bryan



  • 2,984 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 31 1969
  • Real Name:Sean

Posted November 05 2013 - 08:14 AM

http://m.deadline.co...wolverine-film/Fox is negotiating for another Wolverine film with Jackman to be helmed by Mangold.
I don't believe in transcending the genre, I believe IN the genre - Joss Whedon

#76 of 87 OFFLINE   Freddie Z

Freddie Z

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 93 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 22 2013
  • Real Name:Freddie Zaragoza

Posted November 10 2013 - 05:29 AM

and here's an interesting allternate scene that's kinda cool!http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/29627/-wolverine-alternate-ending-shows-mask

#77 of 87 OFFLINE   Sean Bryan

Sean Bryan

    Sean Bryan



  • 2,984 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 31 1969
  • Real Name:Sean

Posted December 04 2013 - 06:55 PM

What a gorgeous transfer on the blu ray!I just finished watching the extended version (only available on the "Unleashed Extended Edition"), and I think it added a good deal to the experience. It doesn't change the story or and new subplots or anything, but it definitely fleshes out some of the characters more, has more brutal violence, and just feels more "whole". And did I mention how beautiful this blu ray looks!? One of the best transfers I've seen recently. Rich, saturated colors, deep blacks, lots of detail and very clean. Definite demo material. I can't capture good pictures of my projected image, but damn does this looks nice. image.jpg And after watching this version, I'm much more strongly leaning towards there being more to "Jean" than just something inside Logan's head. It can still be interpreted that way, but there was one little moment in this version that makes me lean towards something ... more.
I don't believe in transcending the genre, I believe IN the genre - Joss Whedon

#78 of 87 OFFLINE   Sam Favate

Sam Favate

    Producer



  • 5,172 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 03 2004
  • Real Name:Sam Favate

Posted December 15 2013 - 05:22 AM

I watched the extended cut last night, and I didn't think the extra footage added anything significant to the movie. It didn't take away either - The Wolverine still remains one of my favorite films of the year, and one of the best comic book movies in many years. I liked that the stakes for the movie weren't the end of the world. We've sure seen that one used too many times. In any case, the blu-ray looks great; looking forward to getting to the bonus materials.



#79 of 87 OFFLINE   HDvision

HDvision

    Screenwriter



  • 1,002 posts
  • Join Date: Nov 11 2007
  • Real Name:David
  • LocationParis, France

Posted December 15 2013 - 08:15 AM

Just got the steelbook with the full package (3D+2D+extended). This movie have it's drawbacks, but they set up from the start to do a film, and that's it. It just happened to have Wolverine in it. Just for this, it gets an extra hand on all current super-heroes films. This should be the only way to do those.



#80 of 87 OFFLINE   FoxyMulder

FoxyMulder

    映画ファン



  • 5,040 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 14 2009
  • Real Name:Malcolm
  • LocationScotland

Posted December 15 2013 - 09:26 AM

I got this as a Xmas present off my sister, not watched yet, shame the 3D only has the theatrical cut, you would have thought they finished everything in 3D and then cut it down, i guess the extended scenes don't exist in 3D.

 

It's interesting that the extended cut still gets a 12 certificate in the UK, it can't be that much more violent or brutal.


     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users