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WANTED: punchier bass for music, more of what I have for movies (SVS)


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#1 of 37 OFFLINE   Sheldon C

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Posted May 31 2004 - 03:12 AM

Ok, I am finally in the position to upgrade my sub. I have been using a 20-39 pci for the past year and a half in a basement room that is 18x23x8 with no openings.

For movies I like the sub. What I want now is more headroom down low so it won't sound strained or stay at the same volume regardless if I bump up the gain or master volume. I am getting 107 to 108 peaks on the loudest bass scenes on a radio shack meter uncorrected, sub corner loaded about 14 feet away. I would like to get that up to over 115 (uncorrected) if possible, not that I would use that all the time I just want to know the power is there.

For music I am becoming more and more dissatisfied with my sub. It sounds good and it has a very full sound but I would like something with more "punch" to it. I can honestly say that I have never felt the bass in my chest from either movies or music from the svs.

I listen to music more often that I watch movies, but I think they are both equally important to me if that makes sense. I would say that I am about 75/25 music. I am not saying that I want to go back to the sound of my old sub which was a 15" cerwin vega, it was boomy and loose sounding. I think I just want something that has more upper bass and that sounds tight and clear.

So, to sum it up I have 1000 dollars to spend and I want more of what I already have for movies, and punchier bass for music. I don't want to sell the pci, I would like to keep it and use it with whatever I decide to buy.

#2 of 37 OFFLINE   Sheldon C

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Posted May 31 2004 - 03:16 AM

Oh, by the way I have axiom speakers all the way around with m60's for the mains. I listen to music in 2 channel only unless it's a multichannel dvd-audio.

#3 of 37 OFFLINE   Craig Chase

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Posted May 31 2004 - 03:22 AM

Sheldon - For a $1000... Grab a PB2-ISD, stand it up, take off the bass plate, and put it behind you in a corner...

You WILL feel bass...
Craig Chase

#4 of 37 OFFLINE   Sheldon C

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Posted May 31 2004 - 03:35 AM

Thanks for the advice Craig,

so you think a corner behind me is better than a front corner? Why is that?

Also, what would be the best way to integrate the pci with the pb2 as far as placement and movies/music?

#5 of 37 OFFLINE   Craig Chase

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Posted May 31 2004 - 03:44 AM

Sheldon, Usually the corner behind you is closer to you, which allows for the bass to less affected by the room itself. In fact, you may want to try the subwoofer directly behind you... especially if you have an EQ and can boost the 30 to 50 Hz range by 3-4 dB ... Those are the "sock you in the gut" frequencies ...
Craig Chase

#6 of 37 OFFLINE   Sheldon C

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Posted May 31 2004 - 03:51 AM

ok, that makes sense, thanks.

Yeah, the pbs isd is what I have been thinking about getting for a long time, it's just that recently I've been reading a lot about how some people prefer other subs other than svs for their "punchy" bass.

Do you think the pb2 with the bass plate off would sound better than a pci 20-39 if they were calibrated the same? How would both of those compare to the rocket sub?

#7 of 37 OFFLINE   Phil Iturralde

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Posted May 31 2004 - 04:01 AM

I use a SVS 25-31PCi in my 20' x 30' HT/family Room and I calibrated my PCM (2-ch CD music) and LFE using the Yamaha two sub controls, ...

1) SWFR (for PCM 2-ch)
2) LFE

Since SWFR will effect the LFE, I adjust the SWFR first using my favorite Music Jazz CD's. Once that was set, I don't touch that adjustment again.

Next, I run my Dolby Labs dedicated DD-EX LFE test tone, and adjust it until it's approx. 77 dB AVG (lowest needle swing 76 dB / highest 78 dB)

Now, when I play my 2-channel Jazz Music CD's, I get the punch and lower bass fundamentals like when we played live @ the various clubs. The SVS is super since it clearly plays all the bass instruments 2nd & 3rd harmonic fundamentals, making it easy to hear the difference between the bass drum, electric base and upright acoustic bass instruments!!! - Posted Image

Switching modes to play my DVD's, the encoded LFE is perfectly balanced and the SVS 25-31PCi easily moves the floor, air, wall, couch, pant-leg(s) @ all my seating locations @ -10 dB below REF Level (approx. 105/106 dB Fast LFE SPL Peaks - RS Dial 100 / Weight = C / Speed = FAST uncorrected)

FYI: Read my detailed Yamaha RX-V1300 Calibration webpage.

Hopefully, you can set the those two subwoofer levels (SWFR [PCM] / LFE) so when you switch between your 2-channel CD's & DVD's, you get that impressive air & pant-leg moving bass foundation support like I do!!! Posted Image Posted Image

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#8 of 37 OFFLINE   Craig Chase

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Posted May 31 2004 - 04:02 AM

Sheldon, The response of the SVS is tailored to the really deep stuff. A PB2 (either model) that is putting out 100 dB at 30 Hz will typically be doing 98 dB at 40 Hz, and 105 dB at 20 Hz... A 3-4 dB boost in the 40 Hz band will give it that added "punch" in that area. Think Kick drums typically having a fundamental in the 40 Hz range, and Bass Guitar's low E being 42 Hz...

Can you do so with the pci you have now? Sure, but not with the ease of the box. Do you have an eq now ?
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#9 of 37 OFFLINE   Edward J M

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Posted May 31 2004 - 04:20 AM

1) No need to yank the baseplate if you have the floor space.

2) Definitely co-locate the PB2-ISD and the 20-39PCi, preferably in a corner.

3) Run the PB2-ISD in the 20 Hz tune.

4) Set the phase the same for each sub.

5) Initially set the subwoofer channel level control a bit higher than normal (maybe 0), to give yourself a bunch of downward adjustability.

6) Individually calibrate each sub, and set the PB2-ISD about 5 dB hotter (verify with Tom V) than the 20-39PCi. In this manner, they should both reach their clean output limits at about the same point.

For example, if you are using Avia, set the 20-39PCi to say 80 dB, and then set the PB2-ISD to 85 dB.

7) Now with both subs running, use the subwoofer channel level control to adjust the overall (i.e., combined) subwoofer level to your normal calibration setting (say 85 dB with Avia).

Ed
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#10 of 37 OFFLINE   Sheldon C

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Posted May 31 2004 - 04:37 AM

Craig,

no I don't have an eq right now. Will the cheap one that svs sells do the job for me?

Edward,

everything you said makes sense except for one thing. Are you saying I should set the subwoofer volume on my receiver all the way down or all the way up? I have a yamaha rxv 3000 and 0 is the loudest setting while -20 is the lowest. I usually have mine set anywhere between -18 and -14 depending on the source.

thanks

#11 of 37 OFFLINE   Craig Chase

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Posted May 31 2004 - 04:53 AM

Sheldon, The ART will work fine, but, if you are feeling adventerous... take a peek at the Behringer 1124... 12 bands of parametric Eq... for $120...

And my "standing the subwoofer up" is based on your basement use, concrete floors with carpet... I tried both ways with my PB2+ in our basement, and the sound was improved, punchier, and had more kick with the sub standing up. We did not notice this change in our theater room (hardwood floors with a large area rug).... You can actually try both ways (conventional way with drivers firing fown, and standing up so the drivers are firing forward) without taking off the bassplate... which will take very little effort. I cannot promise you will get the same results we did...

And, even if you do go with the Behringer, follow Ed's directions for calibrating... and be careful using boost... 3-4 dB boost means doubling the power... so you really want to limit yourself there.
Craig Chase

#12 of 37 OFFLINE   John F. Palacio

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Posted May 31 2004 - 06:53 AM

Sheldon, if you add a second 20-39 and get the Art eq. you will gain 6dB gain/headroom by colocating them and it will be cheaper than a new PB-2. As others suggest ad some eq in the 30-50Hz range and you will be a happy camper.
Best regards.

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#13 of 37 OFFLINE   Charles Gurganus

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Posted May 31 2004 - 06:55 AM

Craig, tell me how to take the bass plate off the PB2-ISD. It just didn't seem to WANT to come off.
Charles

#14 of 37 OFFLINE   MikeLi

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Posted May 31 2004 - 07:16 AM

Thats a huge room for that sub but have you tried placement. My room is 16X30 with a vaulted ceiling on one side up to 12 Ft. I have the PB2+ which took the place of NHT duals that I had for several years that just could not cut it. No compairison. Spend alittle more and get up to a PB2 of some sort and you will be very happy and not have to worry about placement problems so much. I don't have cement for flooring but on movies I can feel my hair move slightly on the low LFE's and it does a great job on music. I do have my receiver set to automatically lower it just a couple clicks for music listening. You may find you don't need to do that but I think most here find the same response. Either sell you other SVS or put it on top of the PB2 and let the PB2 just take the low stuff.

#15 of 37 OFFLINE   Craig Chase

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Posted May 31 2004 - 07:51 AM

Charles, there are plugs at the bottom of the connnection from the baseplate to the subwoofer itself... remove those plugs, grab a scewdriver, and take out the screws... make sure you put the screws back into place, or you will have holes in the enclosure...

Also... Make sure you LIKE the sound when standing up...
Craig Chase

#16 of 37 OFFLINE   Edward J M

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Posted May 31 2004 - 07:56 AM

Quote:
everything you said makes sense except for one thing. Are you saying I should set the subwoofer volume on my receiver all the way down or all the way up? I have a yamaha rxv 3000 and 0 is the loudest setting while -20 is the lowest. I usually have mine set anywhere between -18 and -14 depending on the source.


Maybe around -10 to start. Then you'll have 10 dB of downward adjustability because when you bring both subs on line after individual calibration, the overall volume will be too loud and you'll need to drop the sub channel a bit.
Ed Mullen
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"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."


#17 of 37 OFFLINE   MikeLi

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Posted May 31 2004 - 09:35 AM

There is one other thing you could try with your current sub. Have you tried the "Y" cable adapter thing. Split the RCA wire at the end of your sub cable and put a "y" adapter and use both inputs on the sub. Some say this makes a big difference as your sending the sub a bit of extra power from your receiver. I ran mine that way when I had dual sub outs on my Yamaha receiver but once I swapped it out for a Dennon it was not necessary. Its a cheap worth try.

#18 of 37 OFFLINE   steve nn

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Posted May 31 2004 - 10:22 AM

Seriously Sheldon in a room that size you would really benefit with a little more. If you threw the 2-ISD at the problem I cant imagen it not curing what ales you. If you can place the sub you have close to you it definitely is worth trying out. I have a great location close to seating that works out very well but WAF dictates that they need to go in the RF leaky corner. One sub in the optimal corner will do close to what dual will in my situation.

I think it was Martha Stewert who said "Head Room Is a Very Good Thing". Yes she likes LFE also.

#19 of 37 OFFLINE   Sheldon C

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Posted May 31 2004 - 11:26 AM

Ok, sounds like the bp2 isd is the one to beat at my price. I failed to mention that I have tons of room to place the beast and my wife lets me do whatever I want with the basement HT/stereo room, so even the WAF leads me to the big friggin box sub.

I think I had already made my mind up, I just needed some reasurance from the bassheads and it looks like all of the usual suspects have done just that...

...one last time, anyobody think the rocket sub beats the pb2 for music only? Going once... going twice....

#20 of 37 OFFLINE   Sheldon C

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Posted May 31 2004 - 11:28 AM

Hey Steve,

I remember posting back and forth with you awhile back. Did you ever get that 4th cylinder?Posted Image Posted Image