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When Sub size is an issue...

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56 replies to this topic

#1 of 57 OFFLINE   jeff.adams



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Posted May 10 2004 - 02:25 PM

I've read with great enjoyment the many positive reviews of SVS and HSU subwoofers. However, I've got issues (don't we all :-)). Issues with WAF and the amount of space the sub takes up that is. So, if my limit was, for instance, a cube that is no larger than 20" on a side, is there a favorite product? This basically rules out the SVS and HSU offerings (unless I condider the cylinder subs, which I _might_ but first want to investigate the square box route). I like the Revel B15 (15" high x-max driver, box is 20" square, right at my limit). I also like the newest Velo digital drive models (the DD-15 is 20 x 18 x 18, almost exactly the same size as the Revel). What are people's suggestions and personal experience on this? Thanks, Jeff

#2 of 57 OFFLINE   WayneO


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Posted May 10 2004 - 02:30 PM

All good subs you mention, it's just people find SVS and Hsu to be a much cheaper than others and still match or better the performance of the more expensive ones. There's no reason you have to get an SVS or Hsu if they physically can't meet your needs. Maybe consider the Paradigm Seismic 12?
If the best advice is "listen for yourself", then why offer your opinion?

#3 of 57 OFFLINE   Wayne Ernst

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Posted May 10 2004 - 03:09 PM

You might want to look into some of the offerings from Stryke, Acoustic Visions, Creative Sound Solutions or Rutledge Audio. You could get a nice little beast built with passive radiators and in a cabint of the size you are looking for - along with the performance you desire.
"My reality check ... just bounced"

#4 of 57 OFFLINE   Garrett Lundy

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Posted May 10 2004 - 03:12 PM

James loudspeaker, Def Tech, a few others
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#5 of 57 OFFLINE   Glenn Shoemake

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Posted May 10 2004 - 04:08 PM

You should look into the SVS Cylinder subs. They have a smaller footprint then the box subs and will take up less floor space. The Cylinder subs are also less picky for finding that "sweet spot" then the box subs. I have never read a bad review of an SVS sub that was properly setup and calibrated. As the proud owner of a PC-Ultra and a PC+ 16-46 I am very happy with the cylinder subs.

#6 of 57 OFFLINE   Jed M

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Posted May 10 2004 - 05:07 PM

A sub that is very high on WAF factor is the UFW-10 the 13" cube from AV123.com. Do a search, you should find some very favorable reviews. I own an SVS by the way, but if I had size limitations I would no doubt go with the UFW-10.
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#7 of 57 OFFLINE   Quinn


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Posted May 10 2004 - 05:33 PM

I just ordered the PB1-ISD approx 2 hours ago (can't wait for it to show). It is 18in wide, 20 in deep, and 21in high. It passed the WAF at my house! You may want to consider it.

#8 of 57 OFFLINE   Jason Brent

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Posted May 10 2004 - 05:49 PM

I second Wayne's suggestion. I think there is a Stryke model called the Power Cube, or something like that. I would say that going with something from Kyle or Brian will get you the most bang for your buck in the smallest package. (It will weigh a ton, though)

#9 of 57 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

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Posted May 10 2004 - 07:10 PM

Velodyne, and the Vandersteen V2W:

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ...

#10 of 57 OFFLINE   jeff.adams



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Posted May 11 2004 - 04:25 AM

Thanks for everyone's suggestions. I probably should have added a little more data and asked another question or two. The room this will go in is 15 x 30 x 8 with about 8 feet of openings at the opposite end of where the sub goes. The seismec 12 is a contender, and has been measured by Tom Nousaine at something like 87 dB at 20 Hz. What is "reference level" and/or how loud does it need to be at 20 Hz to properly feel/detect the lowest registers of a pipe organ and/or the rumble we so often get in movies? (And by the way the system will probably not be used for video for quite awhile, just music for the first year or so.) And, the cylinder subs were mentioned so I suppose I should ask, how do they perform in relation to various box subs? Are there objective measurements of some of the better (longer stroke/xmax) cylinder subs available such that one could actual make a meaningful comparison? Thanks, Jeff

#11 of 57 OFFLINE   Jeff Gatie

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Posted May 11 2004 - 04:51 AM

Reference level is 115dB peaks for a sub, 105dB peaks for the mains. This is very difficult to achieve in all but the smallest rooms and/or with very capable equipment. 87dB @ 20Hz does not cut it, but you probably would still have some impact at the higher frequencies, depending on the dropoff from 30Hz->20Hz.

SVS states that the difference between the cylinder and box versions of each sub is nominal. For example, a PB1-ISD is virtually identical to a 25-31PCi.

See this link for more:


#12 of 57 OFFLINE   Lew Crippen

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Posted May 11 2004 - 04:55 AM

I second Jed’s suggestion of the UFW-10. This is a 15” cube that extends down to 25 Hz. Craig Chase did an extensive review of this sub—you might want to PM him for his opinions—though I think that if you go over the Home Theater Spot, you will find his review. This sub as a one-band graphic equalizer and the cabinet work is very handsome, being available in maple or rosewood. A very good buy at $600. I think that there was a sale (if might be going on still) on buying pairs of these subs.
¡Time is not my master!

#13 of 57 OFFLINE   SethH



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Posted May 11 2004 - 04:57 AM

Check out the reviews on the SVS website. There are reviews of cylinder subs there done by T.N., Secrets, and a guy from "Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity," among others. By most all accounts the cylinders are equal to their box counter parts, meaning that an SVS cylinder with 1 of their "plus" speakers will be roughly the same as the PB-1+ box sub. The cylinders are also significantly cheaper. EDIT: I must be moving slow today . . . Jeff beat me to the punch.

#14 of 57 OFFLINE   JimmyK


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Posted May 11 2004 - 04:58 AM

I have a SVS 16-46PC+ (the tallest cylinder sub) and was quite surprised how easily it blends in the room. I've heard others say this as well. Remember, SVS has a very generous return policy if you wanted to try one out. I would also recommend you contact SVS and let them know what your needs are. They will give you honest answers and information that you may find very helpful. When I was shopping for a sub and contacted SVS, not only did they give me an honest assessment of what SVS product would be best for me (they DO NOT try to oversell!), they also said they could recommend other brands I could find locally if I didn't want to order from an online company. Believe me, the stories you read about SVS's exceptional customer service are not exaggerations! JimmyK

#15 of 57 OFFLINE   jeff.adams



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Posted May 11 2004 - 05:34 AM

Ouch! 115 dB for peaks for the sub. I think TN's measurements of the Seismec 12 show it can do that or close to that starting around 25 Hz, which is pretty impressive for a sub with a nominal 12" driver (more like 10" of moving surface I think). I'll give SVS a call when work slows down a bit and see what they say.

#16 of 57 OFFLINE   jeff.adams



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Posted May 11 2004 - 05:35 AM

Also still anxious to know if anyone knows of any links to reviews of the Revel B15 with good measurement data. Thanks! Jeff

#17 of 57 OFFLINE   Rory Buszka

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Posted May 11 2004 - 08:18 AM

The Acoustic Elegance (formerly Stryke Audio) Mini Thunder should be quite the woofer. It is about a 16" cube, and it features a 12" active driver and dual 12" passive radiators. If you talk to John, I imagine he can set you up with a custom MiniThunder enclosure with the AV12 driver. This driver is about on-par with the SVS dB-12 driver, though it makes a different set of tradeoffs. It has a bit lower efficiency in order to gain more excursion and deeper extension, though in a Mini Thunder cube some of that extension will be lost due to the smaller box and tuning limits of the passive radiators. I am currently building a 3-cubic-foot enclosure that is almost exactly like the Thunder 12.3 (though it may be a little different on the dimensions) and it really is not very big at all. Deeper tuning can be accomplished with the slightly larger box of the Thunder 12.3 and the 15" passive radiators whose suspensions can handle more mass. Give that AV12 woofer 500 watts, and it will thank you with lots of bass. John is an excellent woodworker, and your piece will definitely be furniture-grade, to please the missus.
"It sounds like it's barfing out the bass." - Zach

#18 of 57 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

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Posted May 11 2004 - 12:46 PM

There is a review of a Revel (can't remember the model number) sub in the latest SGHT (which is now SUAV).
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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#19 of 57 OFFLINE   mackie


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Posted May 11 2004 - 01:05 PM

It's not a popular choice on this forum, but I have a Velodyne SPL 1000. I mostly listen to music and didn't want a large sub, so I chose to go with the Velodyne. I haven't been disappointed, and you can hide it about anywhere.

#20 of 57 OFFLINE   Tom McDonald

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Posted May 12 2004 - 12:22 AM

OK I will be the third to say UFW-10, just a very pleasing small package that is just awesome for music enjoyment and though others probably might pack a little more punch for HT it certainly does a fine job there too.

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