Why dont i like bass? (1 Viewer)

[Allen Marshall]

The crossover is either 90hz, 350hz or something i dont know.


Here's the specs page:

http://www.yamaha.com/cgi-win/webcgi...R00010HTR-5640

 

[GregBe]

Wayne,

I think this is an important point that people should not discount. I don't have a BFD, but have a one band equalizer on my sub. I found that I had a big peaks at 24 hz and 60 hz. At first, I thought I had a null in the 40 hz region, and always thought not to boost a null. It turns out that it must have not been a null, because my best solution was to increase at 40 hz by 6 dB's. This allowed me to lower my overall sub level by 5 dB's to get back to calibration. The result was terrific bass, and I barely lost any headroom.

Greg

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Ned, Yes, obviously it wasn’t a null! The fact that it EQ’d away proves it. The reason “they” say not to boost a null is because, basically, it’s an exercise in futility. You can apply as much boost as you like, and it won’t go away. That is indeed a “waste of headroom” because you don’t get anything back.

The problem is that “they” assume that all low spots are nulls, which of course is not correct. I have seen cases, though, where a null was “hiding” in a broad low spot like you see in Sonnie’s graph, and it showed up after equalization – a narrow notch appeared at one end of the low spot, while the rest of the low flattened out.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Ned]

Only 6-8 filters I can get good results with 3-4 but it's so tempting to clean up all the little extra peaks once you take care of the worst peaks. To fix the peak at 56hz I had to use something like -40db cut. The graph looked great but it sounded like crap.

I didn't really work on the house curve yet, and I have an annoying peak around 18hz that is out of the BFD's range. Will try bisecting tomorrow. Hopefully it will sound as good as it measures this time.

 

[Allen Marshall]

wait a minute, lots of people dont have equalizers and dont have any problems, so why is mine so weird?

I'd rather get cut down in a hale of gunfire then say those miniscule differences in sound could be considered diverse. And i dont see why anybody else would either, it's just not the way of things. Or maybe the answer lies elsewhere. Just how different is a 30hz noise from a 100hz noise?

When you run the AVIA subwoofer frequency thing, that goes down to 20hz, it's like that's the only noises you ever hear from the sub, no other instances, you can hear deeper ones or the higher ones but they'll still sound the same. Like playing a sustained note on a computer and then messing with the pitch yet in this case the range is so small it's terribly hard to distinguish the difference by listening to it.

When i was watching movies today i worked out a pretty simple system. I can only tell 4 different noises. The one that you cant hear but rattles everything. The one that sounds like an earthquake, which is like a sustained not so clean sounding dinosaur step type noise with everything rattling at the sametime. The one that sounds like you just dropped a heavy thing board on a carpet floor, or the normal thud one, which you would hear continously during every punch in the matrix.

I can match those 4 noises up with any part in any movie i've watched. Most of the bass sounds like the earthquake one i described, with extremely little or no difference.

My theory is that im expecting higher frequency sounds from the subwoofer then subwoofers are meant to do. But what i was expecting feels right, like that's what subwoofers are supposed to be like instead of what im getting.

Can you shake a room with a 100hz noise? 120hz? 150hz?

I wish i could figure out what im trying to say better. Basically my opinion is if you pounded the table, your speakers would cover 99.5% of that noise and the subwoofer would handle that .5%, which doesnt seem right to me. Like it's covering stuff so far down there..it couldnt really be considered bass, just a rumble.


So, is this true, or is something wrong?

Hope im not offending anybody just trying to get to the bottom of this. Is it not ideal to have bass and rumble instead of just rumble, or am i completely in a universe of my own??

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Allen,

You pretty much made that point in your first post, Allen. As I already detailed in my first reply to your question, I assure you there is a significant difference in sound between 100Hz and 30Hz, even in movies, but you won’t realize the just how much until your room response is dealt with. You will hear even more differences in low frequency sounds in music.

Believe me, I understand your frustration, but until you get your sub equalized, this problem is not going to go away.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Mark Seaton]

Allen - If you aren't going to use an equalizer, you have to do what everyone else does and try a few locations in the room. Maybe try the closest corner to your seat, or at some point along one wall and see how the sound changes. Be sure to re-calibrate if you move it. The sounds you describe are pretty common results from a very ragged frequency response.

So far as the systems you mentioned you heard, I didn't say expensive systems, I said well set up systems. I'm pretty sure you heard the Meridian/Velodyne combo over at Sound & Vision. While that room has some very cool gear, and I've known some of the guys there, it is rare that reatail environments are optimized, as they are in a constant state of flux. There's a reason I will have full DSP control of all channels and bass management in our demo room at CEDIA. Real rooms are tough to make sound great. Impressive to the un-initiated is rather easy, taking things to the next level takes a bit more planning.

Lastly, you have been researching this subwoofer purchase to death, and I have to wonder what your expectations are, and how realistic they are.

 

[DavidCooper]

I agree with Mark here for sure. You must realize the limitations of pretty much everyone's living room HT set-ups. Like most that don't have a dedicated room you have to adjust things to fit the space you are in. Large openings, vaulted ceilings, doorways, and on and on. The performance your trying to achieve will have some road blocks....some can be fixed and some cannot. Thats just the nature of this hobby. Nothing is perfect.

I have a good friend that is also into HT. He has a lot more in the budget area and has spent a tremendous amount more on his system than mine. He has a dedicated room with only one opening leading to the other living area. I on the other had have the typical large living room that opens right up into the dinning/kitchen area. It also has a large opening to the main hallway and vaulted ceilings. Guess what? He even thinks my system sounds better than his! He has said many times it's not that he thinks my speakers are better (he has B&W 804s)...he just likes the way things sound in my living room.

Every application is different....if you can't get the level of performance from the SVS you have I seriously doubt you will find ANY sub that will give what you are asking for. IMO you have one of the "best of the best" in the SUB world.

 

[Ned]

Try listening to these tones

http://www.snapbug.ws/sinewaves

They are just 1/6th octave apart and you should still hear a pitch difference from 22 to 25hz and 25 to 28hz. If you can but then in movies/music you can't hear the subtle differences then you most likely have room interaction that needs to be corrected.

 

[Allen Marshall]

Computer problems again.

So we've established that peoples rooms are the factor in whether they get an equalizer or not?

I've got 3 openings into the room so it's not exactly the most contained HT. I listened to that 10-100hz thing, when you get 3/4s into it, i've never heard a sound that high comming from my sub in a movie ever. It all sounds liek the first half of the sweep.

 

[Allen Marshall]

I'll get the BFD but i dont exactly know the problem with my sub so i'd need help taking something i dont even know how to use, and applying it to a problem that i cant analyize.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

Hi Allen,

This website offers a lot of good info on setting the BFD.

http://www.snapbug.ws/bfd.htm

Also, be very careful with test tones. You can damage the subwoofer in just a few seconds by running test tones at even moderate volume levels. When using tones to find the response curves at your key seating position(s)....try to keep them in the 70-75dB range(on the RS SPL meter---C weighting).

Tom V.
SVS

 

[Massimo N]

Before you go out and buy more gear, I'd recommend you actually plot your frequency response. BTW, I'm assuming you already have an SPL meter This calibration cannot be done by ear.

You can correct some frequencies with:

-Sub placement
-Seating Location
-Room dimensions
...a little hard if the room is already built
-Of course an eq

The article Tom referenced is a great tutorial on the BDF and it explains how to properly measure your frequency. You will need to either download the frequencies ... or order the STRYKE BASS CD (I use the later).

You may have an issue with phase cancelation. If the sub is not in phase with your main speakers, you may have a BIG hole in the 60-100hz range (depending on the speakers, room etc).

I would also recommend when you plot your frequency to do it twice. Once with all speakers off (except sub) and again with then on. The second time will help you put our speakers in phase.

Cheers!

 

[Mark Seaton]

If you get a chance to plot out the general response, be sure to include room dimensions and sub/listener locations in the room. Maybe also include any other locations you might have available and we can get an idea if they will help the response.

 

[Allen Marshall]

Just got my internet back, so now i can actually read that link Tom gave me.

If i hit up to 120db (121db has been my high score) unfixed, in 20hz mode, from 15ft away, should i get another PB2+ in the near future so i dont hurt the sub or am i still in the A-okay boundries?

I've got to spend alot of time with my subwoofer lately and im not very bored with it anymore but the "always sounding the same" feeling is still there. Im suprised no one has told me "subwoofers are just like that, and not what you expected", that gives me hope, but has anyone pondered the idea that maybe im just crazy?

When im in a bassy matrix sequel type of mood, i usually keep the volume down to like -20 to -25 reference so im high frequency combfortable but then even though a subwoofer can jump up alot higher in db then speakers, it still doesnt do it high enough. So i turn it up a few notches on the reciever and i never checked it with a meter but it would probably be 10+ db higher then the rest of the speakers. When im done i put it back to it's normal seetings to be prepared for when i watch a movie louder. It stands out alittle bit but it's bass demoing kung fu fighting time so, who cares?

I do have a question though. As far as gain, do i want to try to calibrate it with the gain as low as possible and the LFE level on the reciever as high as possible or the other way around or what? mines at 1/2 gain and when i calibrate it the way the sub is supposed to be it's about 3 notches from the bottom so i've been curious.

 

[Allen Marshall]

on second thought, looks pretty long, better tackle this tomorrow.

 

[Allen Marshall]

If this equalizer thing sovles my problem then im gonna either get a B4+ or another PB2-Plus at the end of the year. While i was watching The Matrix: Revolutions the sub sorta..quit, but then came back into play 5 seconds later, so im assuming i pushed it to loud. Didnt seem that loud to me, judging by the way things were shaking that is.

 

[Allen Marshall]

I just read that entire site Tom posted. Im either a complete idiot and everyone else gets it, or it's just to big for me to chew.

 

[Allen Marshall]

AHHHHHHHHHH i got a great question. On the SVS Animation thing, they're are two bassy sounds. But one comes out of my computer sub and the other doesnt. The one the little devlish vampire booms to and the one that you just hear come out of your speakers and just a little tiny insignificant smidge from the sub. How come noises like that dont come out of subwoofers, they sound so cool. That's what my front speakers did to sounds like that before i had a subwoofer and i liked it. Are sounds like that just incapable of shaking the walls no matter if it comes out of your fronts or out of your sub?

 

[frank manrique]

Allen,

After you're done with EQ'ing, etc., your sub/audio equipment...why not try cathedral organ music and such for a change? Movie soundtracks can be overly taxing, you know, so keep your ears "tunned" by listening to music--all kinds of music--to balance things out...

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."