TWILIGHT RELEASES LACK OF INTEREST (1 Viewer)

[AnthonyClarke]

It's the same as audio. The masses have converted to convenient crap MP3s which have bled the life from the music, but there is still a niche for the dedicated audiophile through SACDs and the new Blu ray Pure Audio releases, for a far more limited but discerning audience.
And that's why region coding must end .. as this niche marketing can only find a worthwhile audience if globally marketed, as is audio.

 

[SFMike]

I'll continue to support Twilight Time by purchasing as many of their titles as I can afford

Same here Reed. I have bought all of their releases that interested me when they went up for pre-order. We need to continue our support. I is great to have such fine copies of The Egyptian and Demetrius (two of my favorites) and many more. I hope they are making money so they can continue the great work they have been doing.

 

[Persianimmortal]

The ability to ignore is an underused human function, perhaps it is but the threads are there for ALL opinions and not just a select few, if people want to moan then why not, if you came from the UK and had no alternatives for some titles other than TT ones at inflated prices, then you would probably have a little moan too, and when i say inflated prices i do mean what we would probably pay if we had a UK option on these films, so my moan is about Sony/Columbia not licensing titles to UK distributors and not releasing the titles themselves in the UK or Europe, it means TT is the only way to buy, a whole wide world out there and TT is the only way to get some of these titles, that is something i object to because of pricing and limited availability.

Two minor points from me regarding the bolded bits above:

Firstly, regarding opinions - yes, everyone has a right to express them. However, if an opinion is an uninformed one, and is repeated ad nauseam, then it is no longer someone expressing an opinion, it is effectively spam, or thread crapping by any other name. I'm not suggesting that you do this Malcolm, but there are certain people, some of whom now grace my ignore list, who do this in every TT thread. To put it in perspective, imagine if I were to enter the Aspect Ratio thread and constantly argue that widescreen movies should be presented in Academy Ratio, just because that may be something I personally prefer (shades of Jeffrey Wells). Simply by repeatedly expressing my (uninformed) opinion, I would quickly wear out my welcome in that thread.

So expressing opinions is fine, but we should encourage people to base them on known facts, rather than wild fantasies and blind personal agendas. There is a perfectly logical reason why TT has a 3,000 unit limit, and a higher price.

Secondly, when you say "inflated prices" and refer to the UK, I suppose I'm in a similar boat here in Australia as TT releases wind up costing me more due to higher shipping charges (no VAT though) and fewer local options (indeed I import 90%+ of my Blu-rays from the US or UK). It is annoying to be sure, but I don't think it's fair to suggest that we're hard done by overall, because we get quite a few Region B BD releases that the US hasn't received, or will receive at higher prices. For example we have the Masters of Cinema series to give us a range of excellent titles, only some of which are being released by Criterion in the US, at higher prices. I think it all balances out in the end.

 

[ROclockCK]

As a side...

I have no truck in this fight, cause I care about movies. I care not where it came from...as long as not a bootleg.

I also couldn't care less about extras nor "isolated scores". If I want the isolated score...I'll buy the CD. Finding isolated scores is not that hard. It is cool though they are included on some TT. Great. I. Don't. Care.

But reading a thread on "lack of interest" morphing into incessant bitching about "costs $30 and only 3000" gets frickin old.

Although I have no doubt you are sincere in your clearly benevolent indifference toward ISTs Sam, from the get-go that feature has been a core component of Twilight Time's hybrid approach to home video, which, for at least for some of us, has always represented enormous value-add from this label. I certainly do not expect everyone who just wants movie on Blu-ray to share that niche-within-niche enthusiasm, but it is key to understanding the genesis of TT's limited release model, while also answering the question, "Who were/are these micro-targeted DVD/Blu-ray releases intended for?"

Initially, it was the limited collector market, specifically soundtrack collectors, who could suddenly 'have their cake and listen to it too' via TT's releases...heck, there must be 3000 of those hybrid A/V fans worldwide, right? And in the sophomore months of this label's existence, soundtrack buffs already long familiar with Screen Archives Entertainment, seemed to be the earliest adopters of TT's micro-targeted, soundtrack savvy product line...especially with a venerable, well-respected soundtrack historian and archivist like Nick Redman sharing the helm. I mean, they were already there on SAE, searching for rare soundtrack CDs, and Redman was a trusted 'brand'. So TT's foray into limited release home video seemed like a perfect content match with this already very specific subset market, which, until that point, had never been as comprehensively nor consistently served on either DVD or Blu-ray. During TT's Contest #3 last year, just to help folks zero in on the Composer of the title, I listed TT's IST accomplishments to date. Even at that point, they had already created an impressive aural legacy.

However, what quickly became apparent as this label grew was that they were also filling many gaps left by the Studios and other cottage labels in the release of catalogue to Blu-ray. So almost overnight TT was defacto also serving a wider (yet still niche) catalogue market increasingly underserved (especially in Region A), who just wanted TT (or someone) to get the darn movie out on Blu-ray already! And that was how they suddenly caught the attention of a consumer base they had never specifically courted, and certainly never claimed to be serving with any authority...basically, just doing their own groovy thing out of fan interest, and catching that wider market along the way. That's when all this [sic] fun really began, as TT attracted a whirlwind of criticism over their premium pricing for what non-IST fans routinely flipped-off as "barebones" and "slapped on a disc" releases. Thus TT was suddenly judged (IMO much too harshly, and far too often) by a consumer yardstick they never specifically sought measure against. But again, they were the 'only game in town' for most of these titles (at least in Region A), so like it or not, that expanded mantle stuck.

Thankfully, TT has never backed away from their core competency in the soundtrack realm, nor the unprecedented value they've offered to soundtrack fans and collectors. Instead, they've quietly expanded and diversified their line-up, adding other features (like those insightful and rollicking good fun commentaries on what seems like every other release lately), to appeal to movie fans with less specific interest in the soundtrack side of motion picture history.

None of this is meant as a criticism of your post nor any other in this thread Sam...just offered as a little 'take-a-deep-breath-and-one-step-back' reminder that TT's IST work to date has come from a legit and honest place. It's the expectations (and frustrations) of others over the current state of catalogue Blu-ray that have often been unfairly projected upon them.

 

[bruceames]

Two minor points from me regarding the bolded bits above:

Firstly, regarding opinions - yes, everyone has a right to express them. However, if an opinion is an uninformed one, and is repeated ad nauseam, then it is no longer someone expressing an opinion, it is effectively spam, or thread crapping by any other name. I'm not suggesting that you do this Malcolm, but there are certain people, some of whom now grace my ignore list, who do this in every TT thread. To put it in perspective, imagine if I were to enter the Aspect Ratio thread and constantly argue that widescreen movies should be presented in Academy Ratio, just because that may be something I personally prefer (shades of Jeffrey Wells). Simply by repeatedly expressing my (uninformed) opinion, I would quickly wear out my welcome in that thread.

So expressing opinions is fine, but we should encourage people to base them on known facts, rather than wild fantasies and blind personal agendas. There is a perfectly logical reason why TT has a 3,000 unit limit, and a higher price.

True, there are people who repeat the same opinions, good or bad, in every TT thread. People who have strong opinions about something tend to do that just to counterbalance the opinions of those they disagree with.

 

[JoHud]

Hasn't the business model already spread? The independent label B2MP released a blu-ray set of The Puppetoons Movie + 7 shorts licensed directly from Paramount, boasting a cost of $49.99 and limited to 3000 units. I don't hear near as much complaints about that one even though it's more expensive and arguably more limited in its availability. I guess it's only an issue for stuff people actually care about.

Also, what's the real difference between an outfit like TT and one like Flicker Alley? The prices are the same if not more, and much of it is very limited in its distribution. They do get distribution to Amazon and a few other outlets but the price is hardly ever any better. Importing is probably the only real benefit I see.

Same with the TCM exclusive DVDs. Sure there are boxed sets, but they also sell singles at $20--the very same as TT sold them at with more expensive shipping costs. Would people be happier if TT sold the OOP titles on MOD DVDs?

 

[Robert Harris]

You know i know this and you also know i am not "bitching" as someone put it about anything that Twilight Time do, the problem is that the most current transfer can sometimes be very old, you also know i am from the UK and i am wondering why Sony/Columbia refuses to licence out to Arrow or other independent distributors, i know they have tried because i asked someone with inside info on this but they won't do it, they won't release the films on blu ray here at all, so we in Europe must import or get nothing, cost is a factor in all this, unless you are loaded with cash, i am not.

I am also sure you know that i know there is more to it than just a new film scan, here's the thing though and i think you also know this, the studio's need to invest in their past, that 4K film scan should be about archival purposes, it's a win win for all if they do it right, then we get a nice looking blu ray and they have saved their past for future generations to enjoy, catalog isn't selling great now, okay, got it, but it doesn't mean it won't sell in the future.

Further to the above, even a brand new 2K scan will give far superior results to just recycling an older master.

I have to think there will come a point when people get fed up of sequels, prequels, reboots and CGI fests with no soul and maybe the younger generation gets a little older and wants to watch some classy ( or trashy ) films from our past, maybe catalog will make a comeback and if it does it will pay to have vision and have your back catalog of movies available in high quality, i think Sony/Columbia are showing some vision, maybe other studio's should as well.

@Robert

The ability to ignore is an underused human function, perhaps it is but the threads are there for ALL opinions and not just a select few, if people want to moan then why not, if you came from the UK and had no alternatives for some titles other than TT ones at inflated prices, then you would probably have a little moan too, and when i say inflated prices i do mean what we would probably pay if we had a UK option on these films, so my moan is about Sony/Columbia not licensing titles to UK distributors and not releasing the titles themselves in the UK or Europe, it means TT is the only way to buy, a whole wide world out there and TT is the only way to get some of these titles, that is something i object to because of pricing and limited availability.

Oh and before anyone replies and tells me it's not Twilight Times fault, i know this, i am not annoyed at them, it's the studio's fault for not licensing titles on a per country basis to smaller distributors or not releasing them on their own label, now some TT titles are available elsewhere, my gripe is specifically with the Sony/Columbia films not being made available in the UK or Europe.

Here's the problem. I'm certain you're aware of much of this, and I'll speak in general terms.

Original assets, such as OCNs, should not be used to create anything other than assets. Done deal. Period.

An IP or dupe neg isn't worth taking to 2k, because those funds could be used toward the larger picture, ie. asset protection -- scanning in 4k and creating all lower rez elements from the asset.

If one is going to return to original negs, the process is extremely expensive, slow, and the reality is that there is infrastructure to do so, only on a limited basis.

If a studio decided to go to 4k today, down-rez their data to HD for Blu-rays, and want to get 100 titles out, they could not do so.

Scanning, DRS, stabilization, color all take time and huge funds.

Which leaves content owners with few possibilities if they desire to get titles into the marketplace.

Pull a low or mid-level asset off the shelf and put it out, do an HD telecine of a dupe, don't do much clean-up and put it out, a la Olive, or slowly work within the budgets available to them, and in most cases either offer a higher quality product via TT or other licensees, or go the Criterion route, via which the licensee either takes an extant master and cleans it up internally, or begins with a new transfer and does all of the work.

None of this is easy. In any case stated (or re-stated) above, a decent segment of the buying public will be unhappy.

To my mind, the answer is a slow and dedicated path toward 4 or 6k scans of original negs or finest surviving elements, and creating down-rezzed by-products as new product becomes available.

There is also the bigger picture. In many cases, returning to original elements, uncovers problems of vinegary tracks, faded negatives, moldy masters, etc. Pick a title. Open the cans, and 200k later, you still may not have a presentable product.

RAH

 

[ahollis]

Robert - with your explanation I am amazed that we have what we have. Thank you

 

[Jason_V]

I'm not too keen on the idea of having $30 be the norm for catalog on Blu-ray.

In almost every article bemoaning the sluggishness of sales for BD's and DVD's, the author invariably references the "race to the bottom" of prices when BD was fighting it out with HD DVD. Consumers have gotten very complacent with cheap BD's when, in reality, they should have been priced higher and kept higher from the beginning.

Why? Theoretically better quality, more money into mastering/VAM...making BD into something that was special, not an item that can be picked up in any grocery store, gas station or pharmacy. I get a higher sticker price would dissuade people from picking up a title, but when they're all priced like that, the higher price becomes the new norm and restores balance to what the pricing structure should be from the beginning.

However, the counter is that fewer people will be buying discs, causing revenue to go down. I certainly understand that and someone, I'm sure, has done an analysis of what the sweet spot price is.

 

[Walter Kittel]

The OP's question / topic dealt with the inability of Twilight Time (and the other studios by extension) to move large quantities of catalog titles on Blu-Ray. I can't speak for other locales, but in the United States...

The economy (in general terms) hasn't done Blu-Ray adoption any favors. Given the number of folks who are scraping by, those who have become unemployed, etc., etc. is it any surprise that something that epitomizes discretionary spending is affected. You can debate business models, price ratios, availability, streaming vs. media, etc., etc. but for many the money simply isn't there to purchase what is essentially a luxury item.

- Walter.

 

[jcroy]

The OP's question / topic dealt with the inability of Twilight Time (and the other studios by extension) to move large quantities of catalog titles on Blu-Ray. I can't speak for other locales, but in the United States...

The economy (in general terms) hasn't done Blu-Ray adoption any favors. Given the number of folks who are scraping by, those who have become unemployed, etc., etc. is it any surprise that something that epitomizes discretionary spending is affected. You can debate business models, price ratios, availability, streaming vs. media, etc., etc. but for many the money simply isn't there to purchase what is essentially a luxury item.

- Walter.

I encountered a similar thing back in the early-1990's, when it was also a recession.

The main reason why I didn't continue collecting laserdiscs back then, was due to not having a steady income.

 

[Jari K]

Consumers have gotten very complacent with cheap BD's when, in reality, they should have been priced higher and kept higher from the beginning.

This is a bit odd comment. I mean one of the main arguments against Blu-ray (from the start) has always been the higher price. And the price has usually been higher compared to DVD (talking about the MSRP). I still remember those "bitching threads" about e.g. Fox's pricing in the early dawn of the format war and there are still people feeling that Blu-ray titles are generally too expensive (also from the bigger studios, let alone from Criterion, TT, etc).

Further more, I'm almost amazed by some of the comments here. It's like you actually WANT higher prices for BD titles so that the business can continue. Like those higher prices would save the business. And some of you keep repeating the words like "bargain bins" and "$5-10 BDs" (you know, the other end of the spectrum). We should talk about the middle ground, since "bargain bins" NOR "TT prices" alone won't save the business.

 

[Jason_V]

This is a bit odd comment.

Yes, that has been the main argument from people who expect low prices on everything. Some consumers never understood BD is a premium product and expect those discs to be at or below DVD prices (myself included). Howver, to beat HD DVD, the studios made BD just another shiny, mostly disposable disc. They wanted the format to be adopted quickly and for everyone and their brother to buy into it.

So now, consumers (me included) are accustomed to seeing the $7.99 bins at Best Buy or whatever the case is going to be and the think "That's the price BD should be at for all releases." When, in fact, the studios and retailers diminished the premium-ness (sorry, I know that's not a word) of BD early on to generate sales which is now coming back to bite them in some regards.

I'm not saying a higher price would make sales any better. However, when you set the price expectaction at $7.99 and then something comes along for $24.99, we've been trained to think the higher price is unacceptable...which then diminishes sales and "shows" studios there is no consumer demand. It would be like one model of Jaguar selling for $60k and then the next model year goes all the way down to $20k. Every subsequent year that $20k price point is in the marketplace diminishes the value-perceived or otherwise-of a new Jag. If the price were to be raised back to $60k, consumers don't buy as much.

So what is this middle ground? Isn't this capitalism-that is, the companies that can make a profit and have a workable business model survive while everyone else goes away? As far as I'm aware, TT is now three years old. That means they have to be making some kind of profit and their business model works. If it didn't, they'd be gone.

 

[Douglas R]

The OP's question / topic dealt with the inability of Twilight Time (and the other studios by extension) to move large quantities of catalog titles on Blu-Ray. I can't speak for other locales, but in the United States...

The economy (in general terms) hasn't done Blu-Ray adoption any favors. Given the number of folks who are scraping by, those who have become unemployed, etc., etc. is it any surprise that something that epitomizes discretionary spending is affected. You can debate business models, price ratios, availability, streaming vs. media, etc., etc. but for many the money simply isn't there to purchase what is essentially a luxury item.

- Walter.

Looking at this from a UK angle, regardless of the economy I don't think sales of blu-ray will experience a great deal of further growth because, at the risk of igniting old debates, Blu-ray was introduced at the wrong time - either "too late" or "too soon". "Too late", because most film enthusiasts had already obtained their favourite films on DVD and were loathe to buy them all over again. Many people I know, had only recently converted from VHS to DVD when Blu-ray was introduced and so there was no way they were going to embrace a new format, which in any case they saw as having only a marginal improvement on picture quality. And "too soon", because if the format had been introduced some years later. sufficient time might have passed for more people to accept it as a new format when, in Europe at least, consumers began to replace their smallish TV sets with larger screens which would show off the format to better effect.

Looking around retail stores in the UK, especially the HMV chain, I'd say only about 10% of floor space, at most, is given over to BDs compared to DVDs. Even more disconcerning is that it seems as though floor space over the past two rears is not increasing but, if anything, is decreasing. So I don't find it in the least bit surprising that the major studios are not re-releasing more than a limited number of catalogue titles on BD - customers simply aren't there in sufficient numbers.

 

[ROclockCK]

The HMVs here in Canada have actually become our last bastion for retail Blu-ray, still stocking most new releases, even if only one or two units per store.

Where we've seen major retrenchment is in the big boxes like Future Shop who are now pushing disc stock further back into their stores, with less shelf space devoted to it, Best Buy who seem to be finding new ways to spread a diminishing amount of stock over the same shelf space, and even Wal-Mart, who are basically down to one aisle, plus a new release rack, plus a smallish bargain bin. This week, the latter chain had Samson and Delilah nestled among its new releases (albeit on the bottom row) and I was stunned...I mean, this was the first vintage catalogue title I'd seen in one of their stores in weeks.

Once upon a time, and not that long ago, 'street date' meant something to most of these chains, with new releases routinely stacked on the floor when necessary.

 

[Keith Cobby]

The law of diminishing returns has set in and if there is a disc for 4K I expect many fewer classic titles will be released. I occasionally ask my wife if she wants to upgrade some of her favourite films to blu-ray and she is not very enthusiastic. DVD seems to be of adequate quality for the majority.

 

[Yorkshire]

I don't know if this is the right place to bring this up, but I'll ask anyway.

I'm going to use a personal favourite as an example - Amicus' Tales from the Crypt. Small film, cult following, but not a huge demand, you'd think.

Now this has been released on a pretty decent Blu-ray Disc in Australia.

AUSTRALIA!

That's a country with a population of just over 20 million.

Now I know some of those discs will be exported, but I doubt it's many.

And yet neither this film, nor its sequal have been released on the US (population over 300 million) or Europe (effectively 1 market with the same disc used throughout - population over 500 million).

If Tales from the Crypt can sell enough - even if it didn't but was released on the probability that it would - in a country of just over 20 million, how come similar small titles apparently can't sell enough to make money in the US or Europe.

If Tales from the Crypt made money in Australia, surely not releasing it in the US is like the owners of the rights setting fire to a large pile of dollar bills every year it's not out there.

I just don't get it.

Steve W

 

[bruceames]

Tales of the Crypt (1972) definitely has sales potential in other markets as well. It's just that by chance it hasn't been released yet, IMO. Sometimes people assumed that anything that hasn't been released yet means that it's not viable and it TT material. But there are literally thousands of movies that haven't been released yet, that are just as viable as many of those that have been released already through mainstream channels. It's just a matter having too many movies to choose from and too little market to support them at the rate they were released through DVD.

 

[bruceames]

The law of diminishing returns has set in and if there is a disc for 4K I expect many fewer classic titles will be released. I occasionally ask my wife if she wants to upgrade some of her favourite films to blu-ray and she is not very enthusiastic. DVD seems to be of adequate quality for the majority.

It doesn't look too good for 4k on disc at the moment. Blu-ray sales peaked at only 20% of DVD's peak, and with 4k even more niche, I don't think the studios see much of a future in it. It would be good for the BDA and Blu-ray fans, who want to see the format's life extended and continue to see the best quality available on disc. But I haven't heard a peep from any of the major studios that they are interested in the prospect of 4K on disc, and that silence is almost like a statement that they are fully committed digital.

 

[bruceames]

The HMVs here in Canada have actually become our last bastion for retail Blu-ray, still stocking most new releases, even if only one or two units per store.

Where we've seen major retrenchment is in the big boxes like Future Shop who are now pushing disc stock further back into their stores, with less shelf space devoted to it, Best Buy who seem to be finding new ways to spread a diminishing amount of stock over the same shelf space, and even Wal-Mart, who are basically down to one aisle, plus a new release rack, plus a smallish bargain bin. This week, the latter chain had Samson and Delilah nestled among its new releases (albeit on the bottom row) and I was stunned...I mean, this was the first vintage catalogue title I'd seen in one of their stores in weeks.

Once upon a time, and not that long ago, 'street date' meant something to most of these chains, with new releases routinely stacked on the floor when necessary.

While it's not too surprising at how much shelf space has been cut back for movies (probably proportional to the decline in sales over the years), what is surprising is how much shelf space continues to be devoted to DVD compared to Blu-ray. You would think that most of the space is for Blu-ray but it's the other way around and no sign of that changing.