The next AFI 100 Years...100 (fill-in-the-blank) is... (1 Viewer)

[Dennis Nicholls]

However, if Atticus Finch is the greatest hero, where is Bob Ewell on the list of villains? What a miserable low-down lying polecat he was. What a vision: standing there unsteadily on his feet, half-empty whiskey bottle in his hand, yelling "Nigger lover! Nigger lover!"
"Bob Ewell fell on his knife"

 

[Bill Huelbig]

Ken said:

If you wind up buying, renting, or watching a film as a result of a character being mentioned or slighted, the AFI has accomplished what they set out to do. More power to 'em.

My friend at work just asked if she could borrow THE NIGHT OF THE HUNTER because she saw clips from it on the AFI special. She might never have seen it, and she definitely wouldn't be having the great time she's going to have this weekend seeing this one-of-a-kind film, if it wasn't for the AFI. They are a real force for good in the movie world.

--Bill

 

[Seth Paxton]

Yeah, John, like Holadem said, the point to these lists is to do exactly what has happened, spark discussion.

I have very little problem with most of their list since it is subjective. The few things I mentioned were ones that just didn't seem to fit in comparison to the stuff next to them or their place in social film history.

Like calling for Ben-Hur, this isn't just my personal taste because I would put him near the top. It's me saying that there was a time when he was by far the biggest thing in film, winning more Oscars than any other film, and that the type of actions and scenes he has make him not just a protagonist but an archtype for heroes. He and Lawrence oA are both heroes not just of action, but of emotion and thought too. They hit all the bases within their films, as do the other list toppers (though Atticus doesn't have the physical action which is why I wouldn't put him at #1).


And while I said that I wouldn't have Hans where he was, I certainly appreciate why he is there a lot more than "Man" in Bambi. Not every nitpick is of equal value, and in fact Man got the big rant from me. Note that my reasoning for that being a poor choice was not "what I like" but that it just doesn't fit as a compelling character which is what a great villain is supposed to be. You don't walk away from Bambi imitating the Man character, nor talking about them. You talk about Bambi, Thumper, etc.

When you leave Star Wars you do a Vadar impersonation, when you go see the sequel you look forward to his scenes again. Great villains are STARS of the film, not just basic foils. In Bambi Man is no different than some act of nature, Man is not portrayed as a character any more than the rainstorm is (in fact the rainstorm is given MORE character).

Compare Man in Bambi to the Aliens in War of the Worlds or Alien(s) and note the how differently the audiences react to them. No one was screaming for more "Man" in a sequel or something, but everyone wanted to see Alien vs. Predator. Man is a boring villain and in no way the focus of that film as a character.

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

Alright, alright, I get it, i'm a complete and utter shmuck!
Proceed fellas.

 

[Ric Bagoly]

And, there are two 'heroes' on that list, that personally I think of as 'villians'. Not that they didn't do some heroic things, but that doesn't make up (in my opinion) for the bad things they did - Patton & Dirty Harry.

Dirty Harry a VILLAIN, Kaplan?? Alright, this must mean that The Scorpio Killer is a true-blue All-American Hero I suppose??
In addition to comedies, it seems independent film efforts got the shaft too, explaining the omissions of Plissken, Vincent Vega / Jules Winnfield, Billy Jack, Mr. Blonde, etc.
I've got no problem with Freddy making it, but one more spot should have included either Myers, Voorhees, or Leatherface. ANY of which would have made better selections than "Martians" (WTF!?) or "Man" (perhaps the most pretentious, esoteric pick EVER in the history of these specials). Also, Phyllis Dietrichson should NEVER have made the top 10!
The time has come to open these AFI polls more to the public and not just a relative handful of "experts". I wouldn't be surprised to still see Lecter top the villains list, but I guarantee Atticus would probably be in about The Top 25----where he belongs.

 

[Holadem]

Dirty Harry a VILLAIN, Kaplan??

Actually, if it was up to George, Mookie would be #1!
--
Holadem - Do The Right Thing, since you asked.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Yes John, you are the villain of this thread, though certainly not colorful enough to top a list of them though. You need an angle or schtick of some sort.

Actually, if it was up to George, Mookie would be #1!

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

Well John can always do his Bob Ewell imitation. I'll give him the bottle of cheap whiskey. He's on his own for the nasty dialog though......

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

quote...
"He's on his own for the nasty dialog though..."
That should pose no challenge to me at all.
I am sorry for that post though, I was just in rare form this morning.

 

[ScottR]

I think Man from Bambi was a great choice. For generations, the death of Bambi's mother has moved movie going audiences and is a part of the fabric of American culture. The unseen threat of man to nature makes for a chilling screen villain. The AFI was totally correct in including "him."

 

[Bill Huelbig]

Scott said:

I think Man from Bambi was a great choice. For generations, the death of Bambi's mother has moved movie going audiences and is a part of the fabric of American culture.

Man also burned down the forest at the end of the movie. BAMBI was the first movie I ever saw in a theater (3 years old) and the fire scene was terrifying to me. I was glad to see Man up there in a high position on the Villains list.

--Bill

 

[george kaplan]

As I said, he did heroic things, and from the pov of the film, he's the protaganist and the hero. However, he also does a number of things that trample on the constitution and people's rights. I think of most real world cops as heroes, but there are certainly real world rogue cops that are villians to me. I realize my opinion here is a minority one, but that's an explanation of it. I could probably expound, but I'd risk breaking the no-politics rule.

 

[Ric Bagoly]

Yeah, he violated Scorpio's Constitutional Rights because he thought a teenage girl's life was at stake! There is no indication that he had done this on a regular basis! What he does do, is let his emotions get the best of him and play right into Scorpio's hands. That is what makes Scorpio one of the top 10 best villains of all time (AFI?), in that he knew how to twist the system and manipulate a good cop like Harry to bend to his twisted will, which just happens to include roughing him up to find out where the (already dead) teenage girl was!
In closing, Kaplan, Scorpio was such an outstanding psychological villain that he has even YOU convinced that Harry is not that much of a hero, just as he has the media convinced after his (faked) beating from Harry. Certainly a slip of judgement on Harry's part does NOT make him a villain.

 

[george kaplan]

Just to be clear, it's not one specific time that Dirty Harry violates one person's constitutional rights, it's lots of stuff he does over the entire series. Again, I can't really explain this adequately and abide by HTF rules, but it's really more of Harry's disdain for the rights of people that I find problematic. In a movie, we can see that a villian is a villian, but in the real world, lots of people that a cop thinks is a villian turns out to be innocent. And in the real world, what the Dirty Harry mindset leads to isn't great heroic saving of innocent lives while blowing away scumbags, it's planting of evidence and lying under oath because one is convinced that the person is guilty (if not of this crime, then of some crime). In the real world, that type of thinking leads to Mark Furhman and his ilk. And like I said it's all point of view. From a different pov, Gene Hackman's character in Unforgiven would be a Dirty Harry type hero, instead of the villian.

 

[Graham Martin]

Ok…ok new idea... Take the list and look at the match-ups. If the hero and the villains ranked at the same level fought, who would win?

Here is my take:

1. Atticus Finch (in TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD) vs Dr. Hannibal Lecter (in THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS)

Finch, being a lawyer, gets a restraining order for Lecter, but Lecter eats it and him.

Heroes 0 :: Villains 1

2. Indiana Jones (in RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK) vs Norman Bates (in PSYCHO)

Jones whoops Bates' momma-boy ass!

Heroes 1 :: Villains 1

3. James Bond (in DR. NO) vs Darth Vader (in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK)

All the gadgets and cool in the world can't beat the force....or a light saber.

Heroes 1 :: Villains 2

4. Rick Blaine (in CASABLANCA) vs The Wicked Witch of the West (in THE WIZARD OF OZ)

Of all the gin joints in all the towns in the world, that monkey had to fly into mine! BANG! Dead monkey, dead witch.

Heroes 2 :: Villains 2

5. Will Kane (in HIGH NOON) vs Nurse Ratched (in ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO’S NEST)

Will Kane carry's six shooters, Ratched carries whatever stood for Prozac in the 60s. Will wins, if he can manage to hit a lady. Oh...never mind. Will wins.

Heroes 3 :: Villains 2

6. Clarice Starling (in THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS) vs Mr. Potter (in IT’S A WONDERFUL LIFE)

Invalid vs FBI trained chick with a gun. Mr. Potter will need to take out a second mortgage to pay for his medical bills!

Heroes 4 :: Villains 2

7. Rocky Balboa (in ROCKY) vs Alex Forrest (in FATAL ATTRACTION)

She’s wielding a knife and she is freakishly good at popping up and scaring the crap out of you, but Rocky is too fast and puts her on her a$$.

Heroes 5 :: Villains 2

8. Ellen Ripley (in ALIENS) vs Phyllis Dietrichson (in DOUBLE INDEMNITY)

Puh-lease!

Heroes 6 :: Villains 2

9. George Bailey (in IT’S A WONDERFUL LIFE) vs Regan MacNeil (in THE EXORCIST)

Regan goes into possession mode and pukes over Bailey before stuffing him full of Zu Zu's petals and tossing him down the stairs.

Heroes 6 :: Villains 3

10. T. E. Lawrence (in LAWRENCE OF ARABIA) vs The Queen (in SNOW WHITE AND THE SEVEN DWARFS)

Lawrence when he is psycho and bloodthirsty vs someone who can turn herself into a dragon or whatnot. (Am I mixing evil witches?) Anyway... his latent pacifist side combined with his turn of the century manners let the lady get in the first shot and it's a doozy.

Heroes 6 :: Villains 4

11. Jefferson Smith (in MR. SMITH GOES TO WASHINGTON) vs Michael Corleone (in THE GODFATHER: PART II)

Mr. Smith wakes up with Harvey's head in his bed.

Heroes 6 :: Villains 5

12. Tom Joad (in THE GRAPES OF WRATH) vs Alex De Large (in CLOCKWORK ORANGE)

Alex has been pacified, but he's pissed about it. Walking stick to the head while singing a merry tune!

Heroes 6 :: Villains 6

13. Oskar Schindler (in SCHINDLER’S LIST) vs HAL 9000 (in 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY)

After trying to make money off of this HAL, Oskar pulls the plug.

Heroes 7 :: Villains 6

14. Han Solo (in STAR WARS) vs The Alien (in ALIEN)

Tough call here. One must believe that Solo's survival throughout all of his adventures has left him prepared for this. But nothing can really prepare for that. Besides, he usually gets out of trouble through someone else's help and there ain't no Wookies around to save his butt this time!

Heroes 7 :: Villains 7

15. Norma Rae Webster (in NORMA RAE) vs Amon Goeth (in SCHINDLER’S LIST)

We want to unionize! BANG!

Heroes 7 :: Villains 8

16. Shane (in SHANE) vs Noah Cross (in CHINATOWN)

Shane is sickened, beats Noah to a pulp.

Heroes 8 :: Villains 8

17. Harry Callahan (in DIRTY HARRY) vs Annie Wilkes (in MISERY)

Question is...did she hobble two ankles or only one? Doesn't matter. Harry wouldn't fall for her $h*t.

Heroes 9 :: Villains 8

18. Robin Hood (in THE ADVENTURES OF ROBIN HOOD) vs The Shark (in JAWS)

His ban of men are not so merry after his arrows just piss the shark off.

Heroes 9 :: Villains 9

19. Virgil Tibbs (in IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT) vs Captain Bligh (in MUTINY ON THE BOUNTY)

Another tough one. I am going with modern day firearms here.

Heroes 10 :: Villains 9

20. Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid (in BUTCH CASSIDY & THE SUNDANCE KID) vs Man (in BAMBI)

I would argue that this is a disqualification. One is a subset of the other. It should be a tie. But, since I have to pick, I would say that Butch and Sundance would think that they were going to go out in a blaze of glory, but would actually win! (They are, after all, very good examples of the human spirit, which does, as endless episodes of Star Trek have taught us, beat the bad things about “Man” any day of the week!)

Heroes 11 :: Villains 9

21. Mahatma Gandhi (in GANDHI) vs Mrs. John Iselin (in THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE)

Pacifism gets you far. But only so far. Plus, Gandhi is weak from hunger.

Heroes 11 :: Villains 10

22. Spartacus (in SPARTACUS) vs Terminator (in THE TERMINATOR)

Clang (Sword on metal).... BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG .......reload....BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG

Heroes 11 :: Villains 11

23. Terry Malloy (in ON THE WATERFRONT) vs Eve Harrington (in ALL ABOUT EVE)

Eve wins. Never fight a woman who climbs the social ladder.

Heroes 11 :: Villains 12

24. Thelma Dickerson & Louise Sawyer (in THELMA & LOUISE) vs Gordon Gekko (in WALL STREET)

Gordon is ok one on one, but with both of them? I have to give the nod to the ladies on this on.

Heroes 12 :: Villains 12

25. Lou Gehrig (in THE PRIDE OF THE YANKEES) vs Jack Torrance (in THE SHINING)

I say a psycho ax-wielding maniac can take any baseball player, ever. (They would run 90 feet and the baseball player would stop.)

Heroes 12 :: Villains 13

26. Superman (in SUPERMAN) vs Cody Jarrett (in WHITE HEAT)

Unless Cody can find some kryptonite REAL fast, it ain't gonna be pretty!

Heroes 13 :: Villains 13

27. Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein (in ALL THE PRESIDENT’S MEN) vs Martians (in THE WAR OF THE WORLDS)

Deep Throat reveals that the Martians are really a conspiracy to take over the White House. The Washington Post prints all the sordid details known as the Pentagon Papers II: Martian Papers. But it doesn't matter. It’s now the Martian Post.

Heroes 13 :: Villains 14

28. Juror #8 (in 12 ANGRY MEN) vs Max Cady (in CAPE FEAR)

Juror 8 deliberates about Cady's guilt or innocence. Cady has no such reservations. Cady, beyond reasonable doubt.

Heroes 13 :: Villains 15

29. General George Patton (in PATTON) vs Reverend Harry Powell (in THE NIGHT OF THE HUNTER)

Tanks. 'Nuff said.

Heroes 14 :: Villains 15

30. Luke Jackson (in COOL HAND LUKE) vs Travis Bickle (in TAXI DRIVER)

Travis sees Luke chain-sawing parking meters and, thinking that this is just another example of city scum, blows his head off.

Heroes 14 :: Villains 16

31. Erin Brockovich (in ERIN BROCKOVICH) vs Mrs. Danvers (in REBECCA)

Mrs. Danvers is a total bitch, but Erin has tons of spunk. Close call, but Erin’s got kids to inspire her.

Heroes 15 :: Villains 16

32. Philip Marlowe (in THE BIG SLEEP) vs Clyde Barrow & Bonnie Parker (in BONNIE AND CLYDE)

Phillip Marlowe kills Clyde, but doesn't see it coming from the dame. He never sees it coming from the dame.

Heroes 15 :: Villains 17

33. Marge Gunderson (in FARGO) vs Count Dracula (in DRACULA)

The Count tries his seduction routine on Marge, but she ain't fallin' for it. No siree. Now you sit yourself down and I'll warm you toes up with some nice garlic casserole.

Marge wins a surpise victory!

Heroes 16 :: Villains 17

34. Tarzan (in TARZAN THE APE MAN) Dr. Szell (in MARATHON MAN)

Tarzan tries to use his ape yell to get help, but Dr. Szell has wired his mouth shut.

Heroes 16 :: Villains 18

35. Alvin York (in SERGEANT YORK) vs J.J. Hunsecker (in SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS)

I must admit that I have never seen either of these films. But I am guessing someone who made it to the rank of Sergeant wins.

Heroes 17 :: Villains 18

36. Rooster Cogburn (in TRUE GRIT) vs Frank Booth (in BLUE VELVET)

Booth freaks out the simple cowboy so much, Cogburn loses it.

Heroes 17 :: Villains 19

37. Obi-Wan Kenobi (in STAR WARS) vs Harry Lime (in THE THIRD MAN)

Harry Lime explains that all the voices Obi heard crying out when Alderan was destroyed were just little dots and don't matter. Obi-Wan turns Harry into a little dot.

Heroes 18 :: Villains 19

38. The Tramp (in CITY LIGHTS) vs Caesar Enrico Bandello (in LITTLE CAESAR)

We all laugh hysterically while the Tramp skates his way in and out of danger. We stop laughing when he is thrashed to death.

Heroes 18 :: Villains 20

39. Lassie (in LASSIE COME HOME) vs Cruella De Vil (in ONE HUNDRED AND ONE DALMATIONS)

Lassie = Coat

Heroes 18 :: Villains 21

40. Frank Serpico (in SERPICO) vs Freddy Krueger (in A NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET)

Serpico *has* to sleep sometime!

Heroes 18 :: Villains 22

41. Arthur Chipping (in GOODBYE, MR. CHIPS) vs Joan Crawford (in MOMMIE DEAREST)

One more wire hanger = goodbye Mr. Chips!

Heroes 18 :: Villains 23

42. Father Edward (in BOYS TOWN) vs Tom Powers (in THE PUBLIC ENEMY)

A classic match-up if I ever saw one! While Cagney’s Powers is a ruthless gangster, only Father Edward could put him on the straight and narrow!

Heroes 19 :: Villains 23

43. Moses (in THE TEN COMMANDMENTS) vs Regina Giddens (in THE LITTLE FOXES)

Moses has God on his side. No contest.

Heroes 20 :: Villains 23

44. Jimmy "Popeye" Doyle (in THE FRENCH CONNECTION) vs Baby Jane Hudson (in WHATEVER HAPPENED TO BABY JANE)

While Baby Jane does win many points for freakiness, Doyle roughs her up and kicks her butt.

Heroes 21 :: Villains 23

45. Zorro (in THE MARK OF ZORRO) vs The Joker (in BATMAN)

Close one. I am going to have to give this one to El Zorro. He is so much like Batman it’s scary. Think about it.

Heroes 22 :: Villains 23

46. Batman (in BATMAN) vs Hans Gruber (in DIE HARD)

Batman even beat Superman once.

Heroes 23 :: Villains 23

47. Karen Silkwood (in SILKWOOD) vs Tony Camonte (in SCARFACE)

Say hello to my little friend!

Heroes 23 :: Villains 24

48. Terminator (in TERMINATOR 2: JUDGMENT DAY) vs Verbal Kint (in THE USUAL SUSPECTS)

It would never happen. The terminator would never find Kint if Kint didn’t want to be found! However, in the name of science, if they did meet up, Kint would have a *real* gimpy walk afterwards!

Heroes 24 :: Villains 24

49. Andrew Beckett (in PHILADELPHIA) vs Auric Goldfinger (in GOLDFINGER)

No Mr. Beckett...I want you to die! And this time I won't use a stupid machine I leave unattended!

Heroes 24 :: Villains 25

50. General Maximus Decimus Meridus (in GLADIATOR) vs Alonzo Harris (in TRAINING DAY)

Even with guns, I am thinking Alonzo gets his butt kicked to the Maximus!

Heroes 25 :: Villains 25


So how do we solve this apparent tie? I guess we need yet another list! ;-)

 

[Dalton]

Good List Graham.

 

[Bill Huelbig]

Thanks, Graham, for your hilarious post. That was funnier than a lot of the movies on the AFI 100 Comedies list!

--Bill

 

[Graham Martin]

Thanks! I just thought it would help lighten the mood!

 

[Seth Paxton]

Great idea Graham, even more fun than the discussions we had going.

Invalid vs FBI trained chick with a gun. Mr. Potter will need to take out a second mortgage to pay for his medical bills!

Don't deny Potter's modus operandi here. Potter uses his political influence to get Clarice kicked off the force and framed for the murder of an innoncent victim (one actually killed by Lector in a team up effort). Potter wins when Clarice is given the gas chamber while he sits in the witness room drinking some wine.
Optionally, Potter drives her to suicide, again in a team up with Lector, by destroying her personal life. Credit, job, etc. all taken away piece by piece without her ever knowing there was a mastermind behind it all. When she explains the conspiracy to former FBI colleagues they assume she has lost it and call in the shrinks.
In that case I give her 40/60 for a Fugitive-like escape and personal investigation uncovering this Trading Places style life destruction. Remember the Dukes wouldn't have been caught if Murphy hadn't been getting high in the bathroom.

 

[Simon_Lepine]

Funny list Graham
Glad I checked this thread even though I didn't care about the AFI list