Nintendo drops Wii U $50 due to poor sales (1 Viewer)

[Morgan Jolley]

Also, regarding the cel-shading, the biggest pieces of solid information and rumors on the Wii U Zelda are that it will use the Skyward Sword look, not the Wind Waker look.

 

[LeoA]

There's ample hints that increased commonality between their two lines is a goal for Nintendo. Don't be so hasty to dismiss it, especially when Nintendo has flat out said stuff such as talking about making it easier for console and handheld games to be ported to the other platform, has merged both lines, and both have such a dependence on Nintendo's own limited development resources. There's more than just a vague hint or two here that this could likely be their course for the future.

Show me some evidence that says otherwise. Until then, I'll have to go with assumptions based off their statements, their actual actions, and logic and go with thinking that there's a strong possibility that both lines will be drawn close together with their next gen system.

I see no benefit with continuing to fight what's essentially a two front war with limited resources. If they want to quickly succeed in the console realm and maintain their handheld line, they all but need that commonality unless they're suddenly going to be the favorite of 3rd parties again.

Zelda won't be pushed to the next gen. They showed off the dynamic demo when they revealed the Wii U and, while it wasn't anything more than a proof-of-concept for graphics and the tablet, it was basically a promise that the game is coming to this platform.

It came up because of this. I apparently mistakenly didn't finish reading your statement. That said, clearly Laser feels that it was more than just a technology demonstrator which is why I again discussed it.

Also, regarding the cel-shading, the biggest pieces of solid information and rumors on the Wii U Zelda are that it will use the Skyward Sword look, not the Wind Waker look.

Where's your source that it will continue the Skyward Sword look? I personally think it was a beautiful game so I'd love to see it, but I don't think I ever saw what you did about it.

Either way, I think there's ample evidence that the initial Wii U tech demonstration isn't really indicative of the direction they've gone down with this project.

The 3DS is selling extremely well. I believe it is selling as well as the DS did at this stage in its life, if not better. I have no idea where you got your ideas from.

No, sales are down significantly. Look for yourself...

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/library/historical_data/pdf/consolidated_sales_e1403.pdf

Wind Waker was released in the middle of the GameCube's lifespan. Twilight Princess was a launch Wii game. I'm not sure what your point here is.

I've quite clearly communicated it. Wind Waker was the last major Zelda release on a console where it wasn't the system's swan song. Since then, each generation's primary Zelda offering has been a bookend for the system it appeared on which has not only limited its sales potential, but has meant that it did little to grow the platform it appeared on.

Twilight Princess released extremely late in the life of the GameCube at a point when they weren't even producing new systems any longer (It also saw a Wii launch port, but it was a GameCube project at heart), Skyward Sword which was the Wii's own Zelda adventure was released late in the Wii's life, and now Zelda U will likely mark the end of the Wii U.

That you don't think that there's any chance, or even sense, that Nintendo might want this resource where it could do the most good for Nintendo lacks any merit.

We have to be open to that possibility since that chance is far from unlikely with the state of the Wii U that Nintendo might see more benefit from this project as a next generation launch release than as a Wii U finale. And the franchise on console's definitely needs a change in its timing so it can have more impact.

A hybrid mobile/console platform doesn't make sense for a bunch of reasons, primarily an engineering one. The most advanced portable gaming system right now is the PS Vita and it is not as powerful as a PS3. Nintendo touts the Wii U as more powerful than PS3. So even with a couple years of development time and assuming they could get something midway between a PS3 and PS4 (or 360 and One, if you like) for raw power from a portable device, that would still not really be a satisfactory home console. You can't have a base station that it plugs into to suddenly give games a better framerate or more polygons. Further, that's not Nintendo's style.

They can do cheap, small, and still have a lot of power these days at a reasonable price that can display attractive HD Nintendo projects on living room tv's while offering portability.

Furthermore, the competition's horsepower is irrelevant. Haven't you been paying attention in recent years as the Wii more or less continued the GameCube line with a slight boost in power, the Wii U releasing with specs that are more in line with the competition from 2005/2006 rather than what was released last Fall, and Sony's handhelds always significantly outperforming Nintendo's where power is concerned?

All they need is enough horsepower to accomplish their vision for their own games. Nintendo isn't interested in competing in the videogame arms race any longer.

There is not 1 single bit of real substantiated rumor behind the "fusion" console.

I don't believe that I ever did. I specifically used words like anecdotal.

You're the one talking it up as if it was fact that they're not going to make any major changes here despite their current business situation where the handheld line is greatly diminished from past years, the console is a commercial disaster, and they've had an operating loss of $1.18 billion USD over the past three fiscal years and have continually failed by a wide margin to meet their sales projections for both business lines during that time.

You may not like it, but major changes of some sort are on the way even if you'd personally prefer the status quo to be maintained.

Whether or not some or much of what I said comes to pass remains to be seen, but there won't be no shortage of change from Nintendo over the next few years as they fight to right the ship.

 

[LeoA]

Here's a good article from one of those ignorant evil Western videogame journalist about this subject of a Nintendo hybrid system with some interesting quotes from Nintendo...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/02/04/nintendos-next-console-should-be-a-handheld-hybrid/

 

[laser]

The two demos are the exact same situation. They were both for the initial public unveiling of each platform to give the public an idea of just what the system was capable of with a popular Nintendo franchise.

They don't want to repeat the Spaceworld/Wind Waker bait-'n'-switch fiasco. Besides, not only do they need a realistic Zelda to truly show off the hardware (of which some people - even professionals - are still misinformed of its capabilites...they need to check out the tech demos, 3D World, Mario Kart, Smash Bros., X, as well as Watch Dogs & Project CARS... ), but the Wii U has already had its cartoony Zelda (which has WAY less influence on the next Zelda than the tech demo - WW HD was simply good library filler/HD development practice for the Zelda team).

In no way am I (or anyone who follows these things closely) expecting the EXACT style seen in the tech demo - Nintendo clearly stated that it was jazzed-up Twilight Princess assets (anyone can see that for themselves), and like the Spaceworld demo, was a bit generic looking (like tech demos generally are). But similar to Wind Waker? Come on.

I don't claim to know anything about the team's art style plans, but the closest thing we have to some info in this matter is Aonuma & Miyamoto giving direct approval to Hyrule Warriors. It's probably of no relation, but even so...

And I'm simply open to the possibility that the never officially announced Zelda U might sadly have been re-positioned.

See page 7:

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2014/140508e.pdf

But if the lid isn't taken off it fully at E3 with an eye towards a Fall 2015 release, I'll be expecting the worst.

Don't expect a full reveal. There'll be probably be a teaser gameplay video with a short explanation from Aonuma. They've still got THIS year's games to worry about, and less shown = more hype for off-in-the-distance titles anyhow.

No, sales are down significantly. Look for yourself...

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/library/historical_data/pdf/consolidated_sales_e1403.pdf

Not "significantly". Down certainly, but still ok.

...

Man, are you good at sparking debate!

 

[Morgan Jolley]

The only evidence I need that Nintendo isn't making a hybrid console is the fact that they have said they aren't and that the initial rumor about it was completely fake. Sure, it might sound like a neat idea that gets fans excited, but the origin of the rumor was some dude who has no affiliation with Nintendo and has no insider information.

Also, Sony has done something similar with the PS3/4/Vita in terms of teams working together and making tech that allows porting to go smoothly. They have cross-saves, cross-buys, and cross-plays. Doesn't mean the PS4 ended up being a PSV docking station, so why does the exact same strategy for Nintendo mean their next platform is a hybrid?

Nintendo said the Wii U Zelda tech demo was JUST a tech demo and is not indicative of how an eventual Zelda game on Wii U will look. I don't know why we are even talking about this anymore. Some of the earliest rumors about the look of the new Zelda were that it used Skyward Sword's look. I don't remember where I saw that because it was literally like a year ago. Where did you see rumors of it looking like Wind Waker?

Nintendo has more cash than MS and Sony's game divisions combined. I think you are really underselling their performance. Further, the 3DS is a bonafide hit, the Wii U sells consistently well (but not amazing) in Japan, every Pokemon product sells like hotcakes, and the excitement for Mario Kart and Smash Bros. is relatively high. Don't count them out just yet and don't assume they NEED drastic measures to succeed. Right now, the Wii U is sort of on par with the GameCube and will probably go down as one of their worst consoles, but that doesn't mean they need to make weird fusion consoles or start selling Mario games on iOS.

Those 3DS sales numbers aren't so bad. I believe that the 3DS is selling pretty much on par for the DS at this time in its life, which is great considering the competition that exists now (the PS Vita is WAY better than PSP and everyone has a smartphone).

So you're saying you have absolutely no evidence/rumor/proof that a fusion console is happening, but you still think it is? Those quotes in the Forbes article are indicative of something similar to what they're doing with the new Smash Bros. or what Sony does with the PS3/4/Vita with cross-buy stuff. They want to offer experiences that you can take with you and have similar assets be shared, but that doesn't mean having one console that is a portable AND a console. Nintendo has an HD console on the market right now that costs about $270 to make (I believe) without the GamePad. Do you really think they are going to make a newer console to compete against the PS4 and Xbox One (both of which are only selling for like $15-20 more than their manufacturing costs) that is a portable and a home console and somehow still comes in at an affordable price? I seriously doubt it. It doesn't really make economical sense and it doesn't make business sense.However, if they offered a home console and a new portable at the same time that could play similar games (or, at least, a portable version and a home version of the same game) then I would believe that. Again, I see them doing what Sony did with the PS4 and PS Vita. There's no way that a portable console (with a screen, buttons, etc.) could be small enough to portable and powerful enough to be a home console. Even if they're aiming to release it in like 2 years and have better tech by then, I don't think it would be able to compete. Also, for a simply logistical point, what if you have 2 kids in your house and one wants to play a game at home while the other wants to play a game while he's out at a friend's house? Who gets the console/portable? Nintendo is in a bad enough situation because the Wii U only supports 1 GamePad at a time right now, so I doubt they would make this worse by only allowing 1 person to actually use their next console for its intended purpose.

 

[Morgan Jolley]

Also, that Forbes article is like 2 quotes and a lot of opinion about how right the writer is about what Nintendo should do. It really has nothing of value about what they are or aren't doing.

Here's the original rumor that it even references: http://www.complex.com/video-games/2014/01/nintendo-next-gen-console-nintendo-fusion-ds

Really? HVD? A coax input and a cablecard slot? Look through those specs and convince me they're real, or even plausible.

 

[Bryan^H]

Not sure where this topic is going, but to stress that Nintendo is doing fine is blind hope. When they adjusted their sales projection of the WiiU from 9 million units this year to 2.8 million....that is a whopping failure. Less than a third of the units they want to sell, and to be honest they will probably be lucky if they make it to three million. Add to that the lack of third party support is growing -Watchdogs launched on all systems, but on the WiiU it is on schedule for the end of the year, maybe. Want to play the new Wolfenstein, tough luck. Where is Nintendo's own headset? Doesn't exist. Online is the lifeblood of current video games, and chatting is essential. Forget the third party headsets, if Nintendo doesn't make it, I don't want it.
First party titles only will not sustain Nintendo in the future. As I've said before, drastic changes need to be made in order for it to compete with Sony, and Microsoft.

 

[LeoA]

I've explained my thoughts on their future direction, so I won't go through that again...

We'll have to agree to disagree and let time provide our answers.

Not "significantly". Down certainly, but still ok.

A good bit of it is, sadly.

Hard to believe when Nintendo's pumped out so many excellent 3DS releases, but there's some huge disparities in there between DS performance and what the 3DS has achieved. Looking at it last night, I think I saw that 3DS only sold approximately 1/3 of the software in this latest fiscal year that recently finished compared to what the DS did at this same point in its lifespan for one example.

The only evidence I need that Nintendo isn't making a hybrid console is the fact that they have said they aren't and that the initial rumor about it was completely fake.

They never said this though...

I don't know why we are even talking about this anymore. Some of the earliest rumors about the look of the new Zelda were that it used Skyward Sword's look. I don't remember where I saw that because it was literally like a year ago. Where did you see rumors of it looking like Wind Waker?

I've adequately explained this, I believe. It first came up as I already explained since I half read something that you wrote. My reply didn't apply, but Laser believed that the demo was indicative of what direction they're going with Zelda U so the discussion continued.

And I never said that they were going with cell shading. I simply explained the circumstances of how Wind Waker HD came about and let it speak for itself about what they're doing with Zelda U.

Nintendo has more cash than MS and Sony's game divisions combined. I think you are really underselling their performance.

I'm at a loss how I'm underselling anything. Their struggles are hardly the best keep secret in the universe. The Wii U has been a disaster, 3DS sales figures are down dramatically compared to the DS, the financial performance of the company as a whole has been very poor in recent years, and there's ample evidence that Nintendo needs to change to regain success in the future.

Right now, the Wii U is sort of on par with the GameCube

This isn't anywhere close to the truth.

GameCube was sold at a profit from day 1, had a lot of 3rd party support during its first 2 or 3 years, was many millions ahead of where the Wii U is at this point with far more promise for the future, and was making Nintendo a lot of money. It was a modest success all around.

Systems Sold (In Ten Thousands)
Fiscal Year 1 380 GCN 345 Wii U
Fiscal Year 2 576 GCN 272 Wii U

Software Sold (In Ten Thousands)
Fiscal Year 1 1,437 GCN 1,342 Wii U
Fiscal Year 2 4,614 GCN 1,886 Wii U

Even more telling is the GameCube's performance the next couple years after this point, the direction the Wii U is going, and Nintendo's own revised Wii U projections.

The gap, going with Nintendo's own figures, is only going to grow exponentially between these two as the Wii U gets more mileage under it...

Those 3DS sales numbers aren't so bad. I believe that the 3DS is selling pretty much on par for the DS at this time in its life, which is great considering the competition that exists now (the PS Vita is WAY better than PSP and everyone has a smartphone).

Clearly you still haven't even bothered to look at Nintendo's own sales history that I posted? And nobody said that the 3DS is doing badly, it's just not doing nearly as well as the DS did.

This is a fact, the numbers are there in black & white. This is un-debatable.

Systems Sold (In Ten Thousands)
Fiscal Year 1 527 DS 361 3DS
Fiscal Year 2 1,146 DS 1,353 3DS
Fiscal Year 3 2,358 DS 1,395 3DS
Fiscal Year 4 3,031 DS 1,224 3DS

Software Sold (In Ten Thousands)
Fiscal Year 1 1,049 DS 943 3DS
Fiscal Year 2 4,995 DS 3,600 3DS
Fiscal Year 3 12,355 DS 4,961 3DS
Fiscal Year 4 18,562 DS 6,789 3DS

Another fact that hasn't been mentioned is that 3DS isn't approaching the DS at a time when Sony is barely even active in this area. PSP was stiff competition for a number of years yet the DS is still handily outperforming the 3DS in the sales department despite the Vita having essentially gone no where with the 3DS almost being left alone.

There's ample evidence of the softness in Nintendo's handheld business. And things like smartphones are only going to be tougher competition the next time out for a strictly gaming dedicated handheld.

If there's not a major change, their handheld business will likely be about as successful as their console business has been this generation.

 

[laser]

Not sure where this topic is going, but to stress that Nintendo is doing fine is blind hope. When they adjusted their sales projection of the WiiU from 9 million units this year to 2.8 million....that is a whopping failure. Less than a third of the units they want to sell, and to be honest they will probably be lucky if they make it to three million. Add to that the lack of third party support is growing -Watchdogs launched on all systems, but on the WiiU it is on schedule for the end of the year, maybe. Want to play the new Wolfenstein, tough luck. Where is Nintendo's own headset? Doesn't exist. Online is the lifeblood of current video games, and chatting is essential. Forget the third party headsets, if Nintendo doesn't make it, I don't want it.First party titles only will not sustain Nintendo in the future. As I've said before, drastic changes need to be made in order for it to compete with Sony, and Microsoft.

Reduced sales forcasts do not a company on the brink make, nor a desperate company for that matter. At the year-end investors meeting, Iwata clearly showed he was committed to the Wii U, announcung NFC figurines and games designed around the GamePad. They still have over $4.5 billion in the bank and no debt as well...Not to mention this Christmas will have way more quality titles available for the Wii U than the last.

A good bit of it is, sadly. Hard to believe when Nintendo's pumped out so many excellent 3DS releases, but there's some huge disparities in there between DS performance and what the 3DS has achieved. Looking at it last night, I think I saw that 3DS only sold approximately 1/3 of the software in this latest fiscal year that recently finished compared to what the DS did at this same point in its lifespan for one example.

Everything looks bad when you compare it to the Wii & DS. A comparison to the GC + GBA would be more appropriate.

They never said this though...

...The only evidence for a hybrid console is the merging of the departments, and that's likely just to increase cross-platform software (drought prevention). If you shrink down the Wii U hardware, sure you can make a good handheld, but Nintendo will NOT stick with the same hardware for another generation like they did GC-Wii. The casual market they were targeting then fled for mobile and won't be back.

 

[LeoA]

We'll just have to wait and see.

And I was comparing with the GameCube with those Wii U numbers. And GBA was a huge success as well, so I rather suspect that the 3DS lags well behind there as well by at least a good bit.

The handheld environment has changed dramatically in the past 7 or 8 years. Nintendo is going to have to change with it if they're going to maintain a significant presence there. Despite the magnificent 3DS hardware and excellent games like Super Mario 3D Land, it's clearly not the runaway success that its pedigree suggest it should be.

That's because the consumer environment has changed so much. Nintendo will definitely adapt accordingly and I'm sure will again be growing soon, the only debate as far as I'm concerned is how they're going to change.

 

[Bryan^H]

Reduced sales forcasts do not a company on the brink make, nor a desperate company for that matter. At the year-end investors meeting, Iwata clearly showed he was committed to the Wii U, announcung NFC figurines and games designed around the GamePad. They still have over $4.5 billion in the bank and no debt as well...

Well don't take it from me that Nintendo WiiU is a failure thus far. Perhaps you will listen to Nintendo:
http://nypost.com/2014/01/19/nintendo-admits-wii-us-failure/
If you don't want to believe it, that is your business I guess.

 

[laser]

Nintendo will definitely adapt accordingly and I'm sure will again be growing soon, the only debate as far as I'm concerned is how they're going to change.

Handhelds aside for a moment, the Wii U is currently tanking not simply because it's a console, but because it's an unfocused console. The Wii knew what it wanted to be right from the start, but the Wii U targeted everybody and spoke to none. I suspect this at least partly stems from Nintendo not expecting the casual audience to disappear so fast. But alas, the Wii was a fad, plain & simple...

However, the Wii U was thankully built with competitive hardware. No, not the best, but good enough. Remarketing for the reliable hardcore crowd is still possible, and I think it's started. Last fiscal year had Wind Waker HD, Super Mario 3D Lan...World, Wii Fit U, and Donkey Kong Country. This one has started off with the 60 FPS/12 player online Mario Kart 8, and will continue with Bayonetta 2, Hyrule Warriors, Watch Dogs, X, Project CARS (Nintendo's finally getting a little slice of the GT/Forza pie), and Super GameCube For Glory Bros.

If that fails, there's still a Hail Mary left with Miyamoto's GamePad focused projects, which could be combined with the NFC figurines to create a new fad.

Or...a surprise could change absolutely everything!

8 days, people!

Well don't take it from me that Nintendo WiiU is a failure thus far. Perhaps you will listen to Nintendo:
http://nypost.com/2014/01/19/nintendo-admits-wii-us-failure/
If you don't want to believe it, that is your business I guess.

Failing to meet targets doesn't equal a failed console. It will take the entire cycle to know that.

 

[LeoA]

Handhelds aside for a moment, the Wii U is currently tanking not simply because it's a console, but because it's an unfocused console. The Wii knew what it wanted to be right from the start, but the Wii U targeted everybody and spoke to none.

I disagree, I think they clearly went after their strengths rather than trying to please everyone just as they did with the Wii instead of tackling Microsoft and Sony head-on like they tried with the GameCube.

I believe that Wii U is primarily failing because of poor marketing, a shortage of quality titles during its opening months when a couple games of the caliber of Super Mario 3D World at launch and early the following year were most needed, and because they invested far too much into a hardware feature with questionable usefulness that has yet to prove itself.

However, the Wii U was thankully built with competitive hardware. No, not the best, but good enough.

It was good enough for Nintendo themselves, but it was going to likely end up being the Wii again if poor sales hadn't driven most everyone away like has ended up happening.

It's roughly comparable horsepower wise with the Xbox 360 from 2005 and the Playstation 3 from 2006, not the Xbox One and Playstation 4 from last Fall. Not such an issue when most multiplatform releases include Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 versions, but I guarantee it would've been a growing problem for major 3rd party support as they leave the last generation behind and develop to the capabilities of the two dominant consoles out there.

I'm sure we'd of gotten things like toned down Call of Duty ports just like the Wii saw. But just like the Wii experienced, many titles would've passed us over with one major factor for why that happened being the horsepower disparity that made it too much extra effort to go out of the way to support.

This one has started off with the 60 FPS/12 player online Mario Kart 8, and will continue with Bayonetta 2, Hyrule Warriors, Watch Dogs, X, Project CARS (Nintendo's finally getting a little slice of the GT/Forza pie), and Super GameCube For Glory Bros.

There's also Fatal Frame U which was recently announced. Hopefully Nintendo of America will bring it stateside when the day comes.

But beyond Mario Kart 8, that list just saddens me. Bayonetta 2 doesn't interest me, a Dynasty Warriors Zelda crossover doesn't interest me, not a rpg fan so X doesn't interest me, haven't followed Watch Dogs which isn't even due until quarter 4 despite other platforms already having it, and I've never even heard of Super GameCube For Glory Bros...

And Project Cars is coming from an average studio that leaves a lot of doubts for me. Not only do I think they still might not follow through with a Wii U version, but I found their earlier three releases that clearly this is a evolution of near unplayable with a analog stick and analog triggers on the PS3/360 (The two Need for Speed Shift games and Test Drive Ferrari Legends). And Wii U doesn't have analog triggers..

I'll likely hold off and get it with a PS4 someday for wheel support since I found their three earlier racers on the PS3 benefited greatly from it.

So I hope they have a few surprises at E3 along with Zelda U. Still have a lot of excellent games to get to on the Wii U, but I'd be sad if nothing was coming for the rest of the year that excites me (Super Smash Brothers isn't for me and I don't expect Zelda U until next year).

But I have Mario Kart 8 at least.

 

[laser]

It's roughly comparable horsepower wise with the Xbox 360 from 2005 and the Playstation 3 from 2006, not the Xbox One and Playstation 4 from last Fall.

The GPU is actually quite a bit more advanced than 360/PS3. The existing first-party games have solid image quality & smooth framerates at HD resolutions, and use effects that were hard to pull off on those machines. The third-party side doesn't shine as brightly, but there's one notable exception in Need For Speed: Most Wanted - it's closer to PC than 360/PS3. Like I said, extra effort does the trick. It also has 3x the RAM of 360/PS3 (not including 512 MB reserved for the OS - some of that could be freed up at a later date), and uses 25 GB discs. No, it can't push the raw polys, the CPU could be better, and extra polish like AA is often left off to keep the framerate up. But there's no doubt the Wii U is legit next-gen. Check out this analysis of Mario Kart 8 for some insight: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-vs-mario-kart-8

...and I've never even heard of Super GameCube For Glory Bros...

I was actually pointing out Smash's notably hardcore features...

And Project Cars is coming from an average studio that leaves a lot of doubts for me. Not only do I think they still might not follow through with a Wii U version, but I found their earlier three releases that clearly this is a evolution of near unplayable with a analog stick and analog triggers on the PS3/360 (The two Need for Speed Shift games and Test Drive Ferrari Legends). And Wii U doesn't have analog triggers..

There's always the chance that it could have weak gameplay, but it looks amazing. Most of the footage is PC, certainly, but the hints that have been heard about the Wii U version are positive.The GameCube controller adapter could take care of the analog trigger problem. If not, Mario Kart 8 has accelerate set to the right analog stick as an option. It doesn't feel too bad.

 

[LeoA]

I wasn't really talking about graphics. I was talking about physics, netcode, AI, etc.

I never could get used to using the right analog stick for braking and acceleration. Used to be a semi common option on Dual Shock enabled Playstation releases and Playstation 2 titles. But you're right, they could utilize such a setup for analog braking and acceleration.

I'd be rather surprised to see this GameCube adapter supported if it requires special support. It remains to be seen just how it works, heck, it isn't even officially announced for release. So I rather figure it will simply be seen by the Wii U as a standard Pro Controller, minus motion capabilities. That would mean that the analog triggers will essentially be digital if my guess turns out.

Plus, the two stage design where you press it halfway in and then have to significantly increase the pressure to go further isn't such a hot setup for smooth braking and acceleration. Very easy to jump immediately from 50% to close to 100% throttle or brake.

 

[Morgan Jolley]

Way too much to comment on directly.The Wii U is not selling that well because the software is lacking. By this time, I think the GameCube and Wii each had Smash Bros, Mario Kart, Mario Galaxy, and a Zelda game. The Wii U has 2 Marios, a Donkey Kong, and just got Mario Kart. That said, those games have all sold incredibly well given the install base of the Wii U. Mario Kart 8 sold 1.2 million copies over the weekend which is amazing for anything that isn't Call of Duty or GTA.

Nintendo cannot make a portable console that is powerful enough to be a respectable home console for a reasonable price. The 3DS at $250 proved that the upper limit for handhelds is sub-$200 for mass appeal and they absolutely cannot do that.

As was stated, Nintendo has more money than MS and Sony combined and no debt. They did lose money the last few years but they still sell a lot of software. And what hurt sales of the 3DS more than anything was the continued success of the DS plus a few late Pokemon games coming to DS and not 3DS. Once Smash Bros. and Pokemon can only be found on 3DS, Nintendo will move more units.

The major issue with the Wii U is that nobody knew it was a console and they probably still don't. The Wii was overwhelmingly purchased by non-gamers who don't pay attention to game news and the Wii U looks like a tablet peripheral for the Wii console. Nobody wants to pay $350 for a peripheral so nobody did. On top of that, the hardcore gamers think the console is underpowered or lacking the big budget 3rd party games. I don't think anyone is really disappointed that Wolfenstein isn't on Wii U but they are annoyed it took so long for Mario Kart to come out.

 

[LeoA]

There are portable devices that don't cost an arm and a leg and small and economical platforms like the Android that can push out a very attractive HD picture.

The Wii U is not selling that well because the software is lacking.

Software was an issue at launch. Their major release was New Super Mario Brothers U. While an excellent release that I personally loved very much and thought was the best NSMB release yet, it wasn't exactly what the system needed at launch to excite people and was easily dismissed by some.

And little to nothing for a major exclusive during early 2013 was a killer. They actually pulled in a decent launch performance, but there simply wasn't material at that time to sustain it past the point when all the excited Nintendo fans that were early adapters had bought it.

Something different like Mario Kart 8 having released in the spring of 2013 and I think this conversation we'd be having would be dramatically different right now. That long drought we had for major Wii U releases until late summer/fall last year definitely was a major contributor.

All their momentum and most of the optimism about this platform all but evaporated during that period. A game like Super Mario 3D World would've made a huge difference.

But they simply didn't have the software ready.

As was stated, Nintendo has more money than MS and Sony combined and no debt.

I'm skeptical of this but too lazy to pull up some annual reports to confirm.

And what hurt sales of the 3DS more than anything was the continued success of the DS plus a few late Pokemon games coming to DS and not 3DS.

DS has all but fizzled out. Check those numbers in that link I posted earlier. 130,000 DS systems were sold in the most recent fiscal year for instance at a time when 12.24 million 3DS systems were sold during the same period.

3DS actually was growing far better when the DS was still pulling in decent numbers (It had a very strong year for its first full fiscal year on the market and outdid the DS at the same point in its life).

The major issue with the Wii U is that nobody knew it was a console and they probably still don't.

We agree!

Nintendo's marketing department has really let them down this generation starting with the name itself that didn't clearly communicate to the general public that it was a successor to the original.

 

[Morgan Jolley]

I can't think of a portable device (iPad, Android Tablet, or otherwise) that can produce what I would consider console-quality graphics and costs under $300 while being sold at a profit while being well-designed and durable. HD? Sure. Decent games? Also sure. But console-quality? MODERN console-quality? No. If it costs Sony around $380 to produce the PlayStation 4, I don't know how anyone would produce something that creates similar visuals at a portable size (with a controller and HD screen...or two) for $300, even in a year or two.

Nintendo has a ton of money in the bank and absolutely no debt. Sony and MS are huge companies, but talking strictly about their gaming divisions is a different issue. Nintendo is the only company that sold every single unit at a profit up until this generation, so they've never operated at a heavy loss like MS and Sony did until the last couple years. In fact, MS' Xbox division was in debt until around 2008/2009 (going back to 2001 when the first Xbox launched) while Nintendo was only making profit through the N64, GameCube, and Wii. Their recent operating losses came from the Wii U and 3DS being sold at small losses.

The DS and 3DS both have incredibly install numbers. At this point, Nintendo is selling a good amount of software for both but not a lot of hardware because they've saturated pretty well.

 

[LeoA]

It doesn't need to produce visuals on par with the Playstation 4. Again, you're not paying attention to Nintendo's hardware philosophy of the past two generations where they've essentially intentionally been one generation behind.

Plus, open your eyes and look at Mario Kart 8. I think we've legitimately reached the point where Nintendo very well could choose to stay at this plateau, already roughly a generation behind Sony and Microsoft, for another generation.

I bet they could have a portable that at least pushes a picture as attractive as seen on the Wii U gamepad without breaking the bank. Something like the cheap Android platform already pushes visuals not that far away from the Wii U and in HD. And they can easily toggle things like resolution up for when played on the console version.

Clearly we disagree though, so we may as well just sit down and wait. I don't think either one of us is expecting any sort of hardware announcements this year from Nintendo.

Might as well switch course and talk about the games or at least some other aspect of things rather than the possibilities of a hybrid Nintendo system.

Nintendo has a ton of money in the bank and absolutely no debt. Sony and MS are huge companies, but talking strictly about their gaming divisions is a different issue. Nintendo is the only company that sold every single unit at a profit up until this generation, so they've never operated at a heavy loss like MS and Sony did until the last couple years. In fact, MS' Xbox division was in debt until around 2008/2009 (going back to 2001 when the first Xbox launched) while Nintendo was only making profit through the N64, GameCube, and Wii. Their recent operating losses came from the Wii U and 3DS being sold at small losses.

I don't think I've ever opened a Sony annual report, but the Xbox division has been profitable for something like half a decade at this point. Early losses are sunk cost that are irrelevant for today and going forward from a business perspective.

Plus, statistics like Microsoft's cash figure listed in the balance sheet section is a company-wide statistic. So I don't see how you can state that Nintendo has more capital to play with here than Microsoft's gaming division.

And their losses have to do with a multitude of things, not just selling the hardware at a loss. Not approaching company sales projections is one such major explanation for their financial performance of late.

The DS and 3DS both have incredibly install numbers. At this point, Nintendo is selling a good amount of software for both but not a lot of hardware because they've saturated pretty well.

Nobody has tried to portray the 3DS as a failure in this thread.

 

[Morgan Jolley]

The Wii U is only a year and a half old and cost $350 at launch, and that was Nintendo selling it at a loss. I don't know if technology has advanced in the last year and a half where they could package something as powerful as a Wii U and make it portable. The 3DS is barely as powerful as a GameCube. And you're right with them being 1 generation back, which means a hardware launch in about 2 years would need to be as powerful as a PS4.

I disagree about the power of Android portables. They do not have the specs overall to handle something that you'd get out of, say, the Wii U at its best without costing way too much money. Can you show me an example of a tablet and a game that would rival them?

MS has been profitable for a decade, but Nintendo has been profitable for most of the last 30 years. The 1st Xbox came out 13 years ago this fall and less than half of those years were spent accumulating and offsetting losses. Nintendo has $10.5 billion in the bank. (Google it.) That's cash. Microsoft has less money to throw at the Xbox division (http://www.neowin.net/news/report-microsofts-xbox-division-has-lost-nearly-3-billion-in-10-years). I don't have numbers for Sony but I've read before that their gaming division (Sony Computer Entertainment) is worth less than Nintendo. Granted, Sony and MS are huge companies, but the fairest comparison says Nintendo has more liquid assets.

Nintendo sold 1.2 million copies of Mario Kart 8 this past weekend and a bunch of those were Wii U bundles. Let's see how this plays out with Smash Bros. and whatever else they have. I could see them getting up to 30 million consoles sold (the GameCube's number, roughly, and the point where MS abandoned the Xbox per their initial plan). They will definitely be more careful with their next platform and I would expect them to plan a significant game every 2-3 months, similar to what they're aiming for for the Wii U and 3DS since last summer. Wonderful 101, Pikmin, Mario 3D World, Donkey Kong, Mario Kart, Smash Bros. 3DS, Pokemon, Smash Bros. U, and who knows what else to come.