M&K 350 vs SVS PB12 (1 Viewer)

[Elinor]

>"Yes. One playing deeper bass at a louder level(same volume knob level though)."

Whose definition of "flat" is that?

Just turn up the one that's not as loud. Now, it's just as loud.

What am I missing here?

 

[Shane Martin]

Deep bass likely in my experience Obviously Robert Fowkes felt the same way when he added more to the expereince by adding his first SVS. Obviously if the SVS was putting out the same level of bass/flat deep as his existing M&K, He wouldn't have bought another sub and sent it back. They do have a nice no hassle return policy if it doesn't suit ones needs. Dealers like the M&K dealer in my town don't offer anything like that unless I'm willing to pay 15%.

 

[John Menoni]

Wow!!! What a shootout. I never thought pitting the M&K against the SVS would inspire such spirited debate.

As an M&K enthusiast I can understand Elinor's response to what seems like criticism of the M&K. I think we should all keep in mind that we are talking about two reference quality subs that are both tops in the biz. I think I am going to go with SVS because I prefer bone crunching bass. As I mentioned earlier, when I saw EP ll in the Ziegfeld (a non THX theater), I was mesmorized by the unbelievable bass that you felt rumbling through your chest at certain parts of the movie. I think it is difficult to recreate that but the SVS might do the job slightly better than the M&K. Keep in mind. I absolutely love the M&K S-150 system more than words can describe. I just think that for my second sub the SVS will give me better results than just adding another 350 or even a 5000 sub.

 

[Edward J M]

Other significant considerations that have a large impact on the SQ and subjective performance impressions of a subwoofer are:

Dynamic Output - How loud can the subwoofer play on transients while still maintaining a linear FR.

Distortion - What is the distortion limited output capability at each frequency, and how linear is this capability expressed as a function across the pass band.

Power Compression - How long/loud can the subwoofer play on extended bassy scenes while still maintaining a linear FR and still retaining the ability to deliver complex changes in amplitude and transients. Eventually the VCs will overheat to the point where the woofer largely ignores transient spikes and the overall SPL actually starts to drop, turning the sonic presentation into mush. This can actually happen at lower playback levels than you might suspect. I've seen subs go into 4-5 dB of power compression by the end of an extended bassy scene at what most would describe as a moderately loud playback level (vocals 75-80 dB with bass peaks in the 100-105 dB region).

So no, you're not crazy. Just be aware that two subwoofers which have very similar in-room FR curves can give radically different subjective performance impressions - even at less than ear splitting playback levels.

 

[John Menoni]

Very interesting post there Edward! Sounds like you know alot about the technical aspects more than I ever will. Just curious. Taking all the above into account, what sub do you think would perform better? I'm thinking the SVS because the amp is more than twice as powerful.

 

[Mike^S]

Hi Ed, just read your review on Secrets of the Krix Seismix. Very nice review with lots of technical info and measurements.

 

[Edward J M]

Amp power is really a relative thing. It's what the subwoofer does with the power that matters. Enclosure size and alignment significantly affect sensitivity, which directly translates into how much power (watts) the sub will require to achieve a given SPL.

If I could lash both subs to my test rig outside and run some tests, I could tell you with a very high degree of confidence which subwoofer would impress more, particularly for home theater applications where you are looking (as you stated above) to recreate the ship fly-by, landing, and explosion in SW-AOTC.

If anyone has some objective quasi-anechoic data (FR, dynamic output, THD, power compression) on the MX-350, we can certainly draw some parallels between the two models.

Failing that, if you read the hotlinks above from the guy who owned the 16-46PC/PCi, M&K 350, and now the PC-Ultra, you get the impression he favored the PC-Ultra over the other two models.

If it helps any, the PB12-Plus/2 in the 20 Hz tune (typically flat to 15-16 Hz in-room) will provide anywhere from 2-4 dB more clean output at/above 18 Hz than will a PC-Ultra.

If you are willing to sacrifice a bit of ultra deep extension and run the PB12-Plus/2 with all ports open (typically flat to about 20 Hz in-room), it will extend this advantage over the PC-Ultra to more like 4-5 dB above 22 Hz.

If you want flat, clean, deep, linear, plaster-cracking power, I'm honestly not aware of anything that competes on the OEM side with the PB12-Plus/2 for $1,200.

 

[John Menoni]

Thanks for taking the time Edward. I think I'm sold on the PB12-plus 2. I don't think I will go for the ultra 2. I don't think I will need any more than the plus 2. That with the M&K sub should blow the doors off my house!

 

[steve nn]

I would recommend selling the M&K and putting the $$ towards the PB12-Plus/2 John. In that size room you'll have plenty of headroom and all the performance your looking for contained in the one SVS offering. When a guy starts mish-mashing subs, thats when sound quality (can/usually) go south real fast, including cancellations.

 

[John Menoni]

OH boy. I read that 2 subs are always better than one because of sound imagine. I am not hip to all the technical stuff. I also read that the svs sub compliments the 150 system better than a second 350 sub. Maybe I'm better off getting another 350 sub.

 

[SVS-Ron]

Elinor,

It's good to be skeptical, frankly there is far too little genuine and relevant information published about just what makes one sub sound better than another (and as you might have gathered it's not just a question of which is "louder").

Were every sub only equated based on one simple measure life would be grand. As Ed so well described, there are a host of issues that an entire design must do well (actually none of the key factors he mentions can be ones you fall short on). We think SVS does them all well.

Better than any other brand I believe (or else it'd be damn hard to work so hard over here).

Should you be curious enough to try an SVS (as Robert Fowkes contemplated some time ago, and more than once) please drop me a line. I'll personally ensure it's as risk free a proposition as can be had. We don't get many subs returned though, and it's not due to low shipping costs ;^)

PS, SVS wasn't around 7 years ago, so you certainly didn't miss anything back then. We were incorporated late in 1999 and shipped our first products a few months later.

If there's a bottom line in a discussion like the one here it's this: If you are happy with your current sub, there is little reason to change it out. But just because you are happy does not mean there aren't some potentially significant improvements that could be made. 7 years is a lifetime of innovation and progress in this business. DVD has provided an impetus for a sea-change in speaker and subwoofer technology.

Hope that helps some.

John,

Don't hesitate (if you haven't yet done it) to drop us a line too, we can take a look at your room and work to ensure any given sub would be the most effective and value conscious choice.

Ron

 

[Shane Martin]

Considering how big of a difference i heard, I can't say 2 350's would touch the 25-31cs+ combo I heard. It was that impressive and better.

Again as I said, its not a knock on the M&K one bit. There are lots of folks out there happy with them as is my friend with his dual M&k combo however as I've heard now and was a skeptic before, Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Elinor]

A flat system is bliss.

Too much in the low end is as bad as too much in the high end ... at least if the goal is accuracy in sound reproduction.

I guess one's satisfaction can be largely dependent upon the material one values most. For me, it is music and classic movies. I'm not much into the blockbuster effects stuff.

 

[steve nn]

OH boy. I read that 2 subs are always better than one because of sound imagine. I am not hip to all the technical stuff. I also read that the svs sub compliments the 150 system better than a second 350 sub. Maybe I'm better off getting another 350 sub.
__________________________________________________ ____

I understand your thinking John but I'm afraid thats not the case. 2 M&K's will be better than one if you need the headroom but they wont extend any further. When a guy tries to run 2 differently tuned and performance subs> it will cause cancellations. For the fun of it, I tried the PC-Ultra with my 3 25-31CS+'s. What wound up happening is the higher tuned 25-31's negated 6 dbs of the 12 db gain the Ultra provided at around 23hz and under.

So when you talk about mixing your M&K with the SVS, I feel strong caution in the wind. The M&K will drag down the PB12-Plus/2. You would have far better performance in the PB12-Plus/2 offering than what 2 M&K's would provide in the lower hz region.

In comparing what I used to run> 2 Velo ct-150's. I found that just 1 25-31CS+ would out perform them by a wide margin in the lower frequencies and stay up with them at around 28hz and above. The SVS also sounded much better doing it.

So thats why I recommend selling the M&K or using it as a 2nt option in bass You'd be way ahead.

EDIT> In a room your size, the one single 25-31+ or PB+, would do the job very well.

 

[John Menoni]

Thanks Steve. As much as I want to try the extra thump of the SVS, I have a sentimental attachment to the M&K. I know it sounds silly. It was the first of my M&K S-150 speakers. It was my pride and joy until I started upgrading my system. I built everything around the 350. I do have a very long room with low ceilings and a very narrow seating space in the middle of the room. The back part of the room juts out into a bigger area. Do you think I should put the SVS in the front of the room by the front speakers and the M&K in the back? Would that be a problem? If I absolutely can't part ways with the 350, which setup is better. 1) 2 M&K 350s 2) 1 350 1 SVS ? That is the question that I have to answer. Ideally, I would love it if I could put them both to good use. I would just hate to sell my ole 350. I still love that big black box.

 

[Axu R]

What if you put the big, new box to the front, and the older, beloved box to the back, unconnected? That way you can tap her everyday, and tell her you still love her. :b

Otherwise, there could be major problems with calibrating them. Remember that sitting in the middle of the room is not an optimal situation for bass.

 

[Shane Martin]

Likely you wouldn't appreciate the difference then. Again not all products are for everyone.

 

[Robb Roy]

John,

Calibrating dual subs, whether they match or not, is always a challenge. Dual subs can help, or they can hurt, and you won't know until you try. As you don't seem to want to colocate them, the continuously variable phase on the SVS, as opposed to a 0 or 180 switch, will be very helpful. I would suggest you get the SVS and try both hooked up. It could work very well for you. If it doesn't, the single SVS you're looking at is more than enough in your space, so you can decide later to take out the 350 if you want.

Disclaimer: I do some consulting work for SVS, so while I'm really a customer and not an employee, I wanted to make that clear since this thread discusses other brands than SVS.

-Robb

 

[Elinor]

Your honesty is much appreciated Robb. I sometimes suspect there is more "motivated" enthusiasm for specific products on internet forums than ever goes acknowledged.

No, I am not talking about this thread/forum in particular.

 

[Robb Roy]

Elinor,



It's just as important to SVS as it is to me that people are aware of my financial interest in SVS whenever I post in a potentially controversial thread.

-Robb