How to buy new speakers? (1 Viewer)

[Ed Moxley]

Originally Posted by DaveF

They've done free shipping before? I understand it as not available currently. An unconventional approach was considered to reduce shipping costs, but it didn't work out.

I don't know. I just thought it was worth asking. Like I said, all they can say is no.......

 

[DaveF]

I'm asking if they have a direct pickup option. It's about a 6-hr round trip for me but the savings would make it worth my time.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Maybe your friendly neighborhood SVS rep. (on the other side of town) could take possession and you could pick them up from him?!?

 

[DaveF]

We talked about it. Can't do it for corporate insurance reasons.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Bummer.

 

[Rowan80]

You go to Search for home theater store in your nearly place you found best place.this is useful tips .try it.

 

Dave, I literally just joined the Home Theater Forum, since I have resisted getting involved in these, let's face it, rather addictive conversations. This one I can definitely help with though. I recently purchased subwoofers from SVS and I've been auditioning speakers to replace the rest of my setup, fronts first. Current setup:

L/R - Paradigm Monitor 7s v5
Center - Paradigm Monitor CC-290
Surrounds (x3) - Paradigm ADP-190

Reading through the thread, it sounds like you're looking for a good, long-term setup, and you're putting a lot of time and effort into it - this is good. First, buy the speakers you enjoy the most that are within your price range. Even better, save up and buy the "next step up" if you can. With current technology, even speakers under $2,000 (per pair of fronts) are a huge leap over something in the under $1,000 range. Of course, there are exceptions, and your ears will tell you the difference. If you do listen to a lot of music (though not multi-channel recordings), then invest more heavily in the L/R channels, because that's how good recordings typically sound best. A good sub also helps.

My second piece of advice is find 2-3 recordings of material that represents much of what you listen to. How do you pick these tracks? (I suppose they could be movie scenes, but I highly suggest music for this, given the ease of comparison factor and fact that you're looking for good speakers.) Make sure the recording is well produced (free from added grain, good overall dynamics, etc.). If you listen to a large enough cross-section of your music library, you will find certain albums that stand out. Start there. Next, listen to 2 or 3 tracks over and over (preferably a good 2 hours or so if possible) on your current favorite speakers. Make notes; "sound memory" is not long. If you can have a pair of your current number-one-potential-purchases available for comparison during auditions, all the better. I know this is already more than you need and already tried, so I'll leave it at this for now. Let me know if more advice would be of value, or if you have any specific questions.

My recent listening conclusions:

- Under $1,000 per pair, the Paradigm Monitor 7s v6 are great performers. They present a forward soundstage (like the sound is always coming from a place in front of the speakers), but with great height and midrange clarity for this price range. The tweeters are marginal, in my humble opinion. Dynamics (soft to loud) is quite good and will serve many modern movies well. Some compression and blurring of sounds is evident on music with lots of energy (rock with powerful singers and strong guitar parts). Many do this better.

- I wish I had the money to buy something with a Beryllium tweeter - they always seem to sound just fabulous. Alas, I do not...

- That being said, for under $3,000 pair, I would go with either Focal Excite X32 or Paradigm Studio 60 v5. I was actually quite impressed with the Studios, which bodes well for the new SE1 and SE3. Hopefully, they retain the amazing clarity and transient speed of the Studios. I doubt bass performance will be as good, or general off-axis performance, but I bet you could get SE3s for $1,100 a pair.

The SVS kit sounded great to me. If I hadn't done this demo, I'd have merrily bought Paradigm this week, likely with a blind purchase of an SVS sub. But no, I had to hear an exceptional home demo of SVS and throw my whole decision making process into disarray!

Let me be very clear on this - SVS makes very good products for prices that will undercut the direct competition by 40% or more. Example, those Paradigm Studio 60s are MSRP $2,000 (per pair), though I bet you could get them for $1,500 at a respectable audio dealer. Paradigm most likely sells them to the dealer for around $1,000-1,200 and still makes a healthy gross margin around 25% or better. Those speakers could be sold direct to customers for a grand and Paradigm would be still be happy. But the dealers promote their products and allow for auditions (which is itself a very valuable service).

I auditioned a lot of subwoofers, too, and ended up with dual SVS PC12-NSDs (this would be better than a single PC12-Plus, but only matching or below a PC13-Ultra, which would win especially in the lowest of the low octaves). Oh, and always go with duals if you can, as the overlapping modal response makes a huge impact at evening out base response across the room. Bottom line is that they are very, very good, easily matching products from JL Audio, never mind something like a Paradigm DSP sub (they aren't even close). From hearing the new Studio 12 sub recently, the dual NSDs matches or exceeds it from a musical standpoint, plus peak output and dynamics. If you value quality of sound at all, don't even bother with other subs, unless you're willing to spend a lot more. Disclaimer: It helps that I live near Youngstown, OH, so shipping costs on SVS products is not an issue for me.

Okay, so back to your specific conundrum of which speakers to get. The SVS M-series line is more on par with the new Paradigm Studio 60s, probably between those and the Signature S6s - no joke. The tweeter's range will almost guaranteed be better than the Studios. ScanSpeak makes very good tweeters. And remember, the presence region (2k-5k Hz) is where voices (and a lot of music) have the most energy - that's the typical tweeter's lower range. If Paradigm were selling the MTS-01s, the MSRP would be around $3,000 at your local audio dealer. It would be worth it in the long run to save up. Better sound is worth it to some. Right now, I'm willing to take a loss on my Paradigm's to get better overall sound. That actually brings up a though...I may be selling my used models. (I just got my bonus check from work and only now realized that getting new speakers means selling the old one!) They're are well taken care of...hope you like Rosewood : )

Best of luck with your decision. Let me know if you're interested in the current setup.

 

[DaveF]

Chris,
First, welcome to the forum (I guess I'm considered a long-time member ! And thanks for your helpful and insightful comments. Always appreciated.

I've done much of what you suggest, creating a mix CD of some songs representing a range of musical styles, with some good recordings that I'm familiar with. I also chose three DVD demo scenes with a good mix of simple dialog and big effects.

The Paradigm Monitor series was my first love. Had there not been an SVS rep miles from my home, I'd buy a Monitor 9 system. Good price, good sound, attractive cabinets.

But that SVS demo was sweet. And I've appreciated the comments, such as yours, asserting that they are of the Paradigm Studio class. Finally, I've been sold on going from a $600 sub (DSP-3200 or PC120NSD) to a $1000 sub (PC12-Plus); that's really what's pushing me out of my target budget. (Your dual sub suggestion is noted, but is impractical.)

My dark little secret (I've not shared with my wife ) is that I would be ecstatic with a $2000 Monitor 7 kit. Or a $1500 Polk TSi kit. Or anything better than my current $200 KLH kit... But I'm a sucker for a good value and buy the highest quality toys I can (spend big or don't spend at all). So I'm 95% sold on the SVS MTS system.

I'm considering traveling to SVS for pickup -- that $200 shipping is a psychological barrier -- but it's not looking good given the 500 mile round trip and weekday requirement.

Again, welcome and thanks for making my thread home for your first post

 

[Mike Frezon]

Originally Posted by DaveF /forum/thread/297610/how-to-buy-new-speakers/60#post_3664420

 

[DaveF]

If they do a tour or anything, it becomes more enticing. I got the box dimensions so I can see if they even would fit in an available vehicle.

 

Glad to hear you have really taken the right steps in searching for new speakers. It's even better that you're leaning heavily towards the SVS M-series; I'm sure they will offer years of excellent performance. And $2300 for the full 5.0 portion of the system is quite a nice price. If you're looking to get the price down further, keep checking the website for B-stock deals. There was a pair of Cherry MTS-01s for $800 recently. It might be a while though if you're looking for either Rosewood or Piano Black, because you'll have to get in line behind me

I will advise that a "factory tour" isn't really much to get excited about. The location in Youngstown is pretty basic, though the crew there is very nice and Dan will show you around the building. Seeing the subs in-progress is pretty cool.

One more thing on the SVS speakers: Be sure to set your receiver (Onkyo 707, correct?) to its 4-ohms setting before running Audyssey or doing any critical listening. The M-series line hits some low impedance values, although phase angle is kept well in-check, so the overall load on the amp shouldn't be too bad. The 707 should have enough in the tanks to drive the SVS load. Let me know if you want the individual specs (includes off-axis performance, impedance curve, etc.) on the MCS and MTS, as I have PDF files that Ed sent me.

If I end up purchasing the MTS pair soon (not sure when that will happen exactly), I would gladly pick up your set for you, then you could pick it up a my place on a weekend (I'm in eastern Cleveland). Timing for me is all about that B-stock right now.

And now it's time to listen to some tunes...

 

[DaveF]

I'm hopeful the 707 will be sufficient for my normal volumes. But I've been urged to get an external amp -- I'm hoping used Emotiva UPA-5 starts showing up on eBay

Thanks for the tip on the "tour". The trip out isn't a gimme in terms of value. But maybe a little tour helps make it worth my while. Otherwise, pay the shipping. (Unfortunately, Cleveland is no closer to me.)

I've looked at the B-Stock section a couple times but I've not seen any MTS units. But I'm not one to wait to piecemeal a system. I'll buy the whole kit; and there's a slight discount for 5.1 purchase (almost, but not quite, enough to make it worth jumping up another sub level).

 

The 707 will have plenty of power to drive the MTS and MCS...sensitivity on those speakers is high enough that they will probably be drawing only 2-3 watts most of the time. The MBS is a bit lower (lower than average, too), so they will draw a good bit of power if you listen to music on the All-Channel-Stereo mode. Otherwise, 100W or so per channel is plenty - that's a solid true 20+ dB gain. Quality might be a different story...you'll have to hear how the M-series speakers sound through it. Push-pull designs (which is most all-in-one receivers) do add distortion at the expense of cheaper power, so going with an external amp (or good preamp) may help.

I run an Integra DTR-8.8, which actually sounds great to my ears, even compared to some of the NAD and Cambridge Audio integrated amps I've heard, which I also like. I have heard good things about Emotiva, but only heard one of their models - it was fine, but I wouldn't spend the extra money unless I really needed more power. Keep in mind though that the 8.8 uses a toroidal transformer and a dual push-pull design, which practically eliminates the distortion from a single push-pull. I have heard some pure Class-A amps, and that's where I would go for the best in stereo audio - nothing comes close from what I've heard. Although I have not auditioned NAD's new DD M2...can't wait to read that review in Stereophile ; )

Overall though, I suspect that SVSounds' M-series line will sound great with modestly powered integrated amps, given the impedance curves. Since your Onkyo should be able to handle true 4 ohm loads, the midrange (where the impedance drops on the MTS) won't be recessed. I've read some reviews that challenged the MTS midrange ("laid back"), but it's probably more to do with the amp. Let your ears be your guide. Or something profound like that...

 

[DaveF]

The SVS speakers seem inefficient compared to e.g. Paradigm, which are 95+ dB/V at 8 ohms, versus the MTS which are about ~88 dB/V at 4 ohms. I don't know anything about the electronics of speakers to know why that is or its sonic significance.

As you recommend, I'm in no hurry to buy an external amp. It's only if it seems necessary, and even then I'd hope to find a used model. But I do take note when a company rep / enthusiast urges me to buy a supplemental product from some other company, simply because it's an awesome upgrade (he was using Outlaw monoblocks, but explicitly suggested Emotiva as an easy starting point).

I'm close to buying. Need to decide on local pickup. Waiting to make sure I'm still employed next month

 

The SVS speakers seem inefficient compared to e.g. Paradigm, which are 95+ dB/V at 8 ohms, versus the MTS which are about ~88 dB/V at 4 ohms. I don't know anything about the electronics of speakers to know why that is or its sonic significance.

Be careful of sensitivity ratings. Make sure that both speakers are listed as anechoic, 1 Watt at 1 meter (2.83V into 8 ohm load). This value is usually an average sound pressure level across the entire speaker/human frequency range (20 Hz to 20,000 Hz). Sensitivity is averaged, because no speaker plays perfectly flat across the frequency range (that's what the +/- 3 dB from 50 Hz to 20 kHz, for example, is referring to - the tighter that +- value is, the "flatter" a speaker plays, all things being equal).

The SVS efficiency is 88 dB at that spec, but the Paradigm Monitor 9 v6 is listed at 96 dB in-room. "In-room" accounts for the natural gain in efficiency created by room reverberations, which adds approximately 3 dB in most rooms, and typically more in the lower bass region, depending on room mode. So, the MTS is more like 91 dB in-room.

What does that mean for sound? Short version is that the higher the sensitivity, the less power is required to play at higher sound pressure (dB) levels. So, if you pumped 1 Watt through the Paradigm and positioned yourself 1 meter away, you would get 93 dB of sound (without room gain and averaged over the frequency range). That's already pretty loud, and, of course, you probably sit 8 feet or more from the speaker, so the efficiency measured at your listening position will be less.

The key here is that every 3 dB is approximately twice as loud, so using the same power, the Monitor 9s are playing almost four times as loud as the MTS speakers (5 dB actually). Another good reference is that to obtain a 3 dB gain requires twice as much power. So, for the MTS to play at the same sound pressure level requires just below 4 Watts of power. (This is partly why "lower" powered Class-A amps with very pure circuitry sound so good, because so much of the music and sound coming out of speakers doesn't exceed a few Watts.)

Okay, some more math building on the example above: If you want to have transient peaks of 110 dB (i.e. - THX Ultra2 required and generally considered "reference-level"), then you need a lot of gain (measured in Watts). For a 91 dB sensitivity speaker you need 19 dB of gain to reach 110 dB (probably need a bit more to play cleanly, without distortion passing 1%). 18 dB of gain is 2^6 power Watts (18 dB divided by 3 dB = 6), so 64 Watts in terms of raw power. To get to 21 dB of gain, you need 128 Watts, and so on.

The Paradigm at 96 Watts in-room, will only need 14 dB of gain, which is around 25 Watts of power. That's a much more comfortable load for your amp. There's more to it, of course, and lower ohms (less resistance) pulls more power, assuming the amp can handle it, and good amps can produce more power at lower resistance levels. Best guess here: the SVS MTS towers will play around the same peak levels as the Monitor 9s, but much cleaner leading up to those levels.

I know that was probably much more than you wanted or needed but now I can point people here when they ask we a similar question in the future

As for the used PC13-Ultra versus the new PC12-Plus, given the similarity in overall driver design, I'm guessing you won't hear too much of a difference unless you play it really loud...or like pipe organ music.

 

[DaveF]

I hadn't noticed the difference in spec parameters (in room vs anechoic). And the math is not a problem. I prefer some good math to hand-wavy "laidback" comments, when appropriate

 

I prefer the math approach, as well. Nothing beats A/B listening though!

The more we talk, the the more I'm considering just buying the MTS towers, B-stock or not, just so I can take them to local audio dealers and pit them against the "mainstream" brands. Plus, then I could directly compare them to my current Monitor 7s and see if they're worth the extra money...I'll keep you posted.

 

[DaveF]

I wish I could do even a basic A/B between SVS MTS and Paradigm Monitor. (Or even A/B Monitor 7 & 9...*) I guess since you've got local pickup, you don't have to worry about burning hundreds of dollars on shipping.

I'm not sure I want to hear your results. Depends on whether they agree with my decision and happens before or after my purchase!


(* It's dismaying that the boutique shops can't do even a basic A/B switch between a pair of speakers. It makes me want to open a home theater store one day in my retirement. I could do a much better job for minimal cost.)

 

Yeah, not having to eat the shipping costs is a real plus >: )

And I agree with you 100% on the home theater store front. You would think that with all that extra overhead and distributor costs, the audio stores would be able to provide A/B listening for anything consumers were interested in hearing. I'm lucky enough to have a place called Sound & Vision (yes, that name is confusing, since in matches the mag's name) that offers some A/B listening - they carry Klipsch (probably not for long though), Paradigm, Def Tech, and Focal. (Which reminds me, don't A/B a $2,000 pair of speakers against $15,000 Focal Electra 1027s. But, hey, the demo models are on sale for $8,000!)

Good thing is I was at least able to compare the new Studio line to the Monitors, Def Tech STS towers, and Focal Chorus 816s. For under $1,000, I liked the Monitor 9s the most (I may have said the 7s earlier in this thread, but that was probably just me reassuring my own previous purchase ). The Studios were in a completely different league compared to the Monitor line, and, for the characteristics I value, ahead of the Def Techs and Focals, as well.


SVSounds' Ed Mullen's notes on the Studio 60s versus MTS-01s:

"We had P-digms [note: Studio 60s v4, not v5 though] here for blind testing and the MTS-01 compared very well in overall voicing/timbre and surpassed the Studios in imaging and sound stage depth/solidity and micro-dynamics (credit the exceptional phase response for all that).

Give the MTS-01 a try with quality upstream electronics and decent room acoustics and they will reward you with excellent fidelity."

 

[DaveF]

Yes, Ed told me much the same when I was over at his house

I would have bought a Paradigm kit had I not done the SVS demo. (And honestly, the Paradigm's are more attractive than the SVS speakers. But life has its compromises.)