Denon 2900.....I sure love it (1 Viewer)

[Craig Robertson]

i'll ask again, what is a reasonable price to pay for a new 2900?

 

[Lewis Besze]

$700.00-$800.00

 

[TrevorS]

Hi, Lewis

I would like to know where the DVD-2900 can be bought with factory warranty for those prices. The lowest I found in searching the web three weeks ago was aprox $900.

Thanks -- Trevor

 

[Bruce Abar]

How does your Modded 2900 sound Trevor? I ordered one today, not as beefed up as yours, but with level one. I owned the stock 2900 for 1 month and was very impressed with the sound it produced,so the modified version should be incredable!

 

[Vladimir]

I couldn’t resist not making following comments about comparing stock dvd2900 with modded 2900 and 5900. There was a recent review by Bill Gaw of modded 2900 on the Enjoythemusic website and Bill Gaw also reviewed a stock 2900 a few months before that (also available on that website). After reading both reviews and other comments about all these players, it appears to me that oftentimes these reviews are not as objective as the reviewers and others are trying to present them.
So here we go and I am sorry if it ends up being a little bit too long.

Quotations from UNDERWOOD HIFI about dvd 2900 and dvd 5900:
“The analog-stage however is a major disappointment…” (from Underwood HIFI description on Audiogon website about stock denon dvd 2900)

“The new DVD-5900 is a step up unit for twice the price of the 2900, $2000.00 retail... Sonically, the two units are amazingly similar. The 5900 does have a heavier gauge chassis that is 8 pound more than the 2900. It also uses four DACs for the front two channels only when the unit is played in two channel mode. Finally, it has a little bigger power supply than the 2900.” (from Bill Gaw’s review of modded denon dvd 2900 available on Enjoythemusic dot com website).

Of course if you take seriously the Underwood HiFi comments that 2900 and 5900 sound similar, it would mean that analog stage in 5900 is also “a major disappointment”.

From Bill Gaw’s review of STOCK (!) denon dvd 2900 (from Enjoythemusic dot com website).

“SACD sounds as good as I have heard from all except the multi mega-bucks units. (My comments: That sounds pretty good to me and suggest that stock 2900 SACD sound is comparable to even slightly more expensive stand alone SACD players – I don’t see much disappointment here!). Tonality is spot on while ambience recovery is superb. Except for some of the original RCA and Mercury master tapes I had years ago, and still fondly remember, SACD is as close to live as I have gotten. It is probably not up to what Ed Meitner is getting from his EMM SACD converter at $8,000 a unit, but good enough for me. I am afraid it is close enough to analog that I have not listened to vinyl in over a month (Editor Steve sez: Bill, maybe that ear infection also caused other problems. With your excellent analog rig it is hard to fathom not using it many times each week).”

“CD is also very good, at least equaling what I have obtained in the past from standard CD players in the $1,200 range… After break-in the upper frequencies smoothed out and the soundstage opened up to the point where it matched my home theater computer running through an M-Audio 1010 professional D/A studio converter.”

“First, the Denon 2900 is the by far the best of the three I have tried out so far, at least equaling any individual CD, DVD-Audio, SACD and DVD-Video player out there in its price range… While there are CD and SACD players out there that will outperform the Denon, all cost significantly more …”

Now to the modded dvd 2900 review by Bill Gaw:

“The major improvement of the three-channel mod over the stock Denon is an opening up of the soundstage due to improved retrieval of background information. If it is there, the modified Denon will give it to you.” My comments: Interestingly, the reviewer already said that “ambience recovery is superb” about stock 2900 (see above). So modded units can’t be that much better than “superb”, right?

“There is also an improvement with CD playback that puts the unit on par with CD players costing about the same price, plus one also gets the Denon's great DVD-Video playback.” My comments: Again, the reviewer already said that stock Denon dvd2900 is “at least” equal to standard CD players in the same price range (see above) so if I compare these two reviews, stock 2900 sounds as good as a regular CD player in its price range and modded 2900 also sounds as good – from these statements I would conclude that modded 2900 does not sound that much better on redbook CD than stock 2900. The reviewer did not say that modded 2900 is equal to standard CD players 2-3 times the price.

“It is so good that I have brought my Walker Proscenium turntable ($30,000) with Kondo IO-J cartridge and wire ($15,000) for updating, asking Lloyd Walker to take his time as I am happy with pure digital for the first time.” My comments: I thought that in the review of stock 2900, the reviewer already stated that “I am afraid it is close enough to analog that I have not listened to vinyl in over a month…”.

So, my take on these reviews is that even though modded 2900 is probably better than stock 2900, I think it is only slightly better, not by a wide margin. I think that Underwood HIFI exaggerate the improvements of modded 2900 while from almost all reviews it appears that stock 2900 already sounds really good on all formats. Of course if someone would want to argue that these marginal improvements make the modded player of truly audiophile quality, I would not argue. But the point is that people who normally would not spend 10 grand on a CD player would likely be very happy with a stock 2900 without any mods and to say that stock 2900 is “a major disappointment” seems like a typical marketing trick.

Underwood HIFI stated that 5900 has “a little bigger power supply than the 2900.”

If you look at the 5900 description on the Audioholics website, it says:
“The DVD-5900 has discrete and isolated power supplies for digital and analog, whereas the DVD-2900 appears to integrate both together on the same CCA with separate regulators for the digital sections . The makeup of the analog PS for the 5900 consists of a 2” transformer with two large 50V and / 3,300µf capacitors and two 50V and / 470µf, along with additional smaller decoupling ones. The digital PS has a separate 1” transformer coupled with one 400V and / 100µf capacitor and a host of 16V caps. The DVD-2900 implements only separate supplies via smaller one 1” transformer for both digital and analog PS's with only one 400-V and 100µf capacitor coupled with smaller 16V, 15V and 100V caps. There are no large storage caps as found in the analog PS of the 5900”.

To me that looks like a large, not a little difference, in power supply. And of course, except Underwood HiFi, all who compared 2900 and 5900 concluded that 5900 sounds better (often by a large margin) than 2900. But as some argued, this opinion could be biased because of the need to justify the extra $$ spent. Then, I would argue that absolutely all reviews and comparisons are biased as long as the reviewers had a prior knowledge of what they were comparing. I think the reviews I discussed above clearly demonstrate my point. The only way to be objective is to review a player without even knowing its brand, price, what’s inside, etc. I am sure if many audiophiles would do that they would be up to some surprises.

 

[TrevorS]

Vladimir

Let's just say the DVD-5900 walks on water and as Levesque said earlier, is the best player out there. Now will you please give it a rest? (Talk about feeling the need to defend one's purchase!)

Thanks very much -- Trevor

 

[Vladimir]

Trevor,

I did not mean to offend anybody, if I did, I am truly sorry. Neither I meant to say that 5900 is the best. I just wanted to stress out how subjective and not always consistent the whole area is and that everybody is different and should be happy with whatever choice they made.

Again, I did not mean to insult anybody.

Vladimir

 

[TrevorS]

Hi,Bruce

Unfortunately, I'm trying to be 'good' and wait for the official 200 hour break-in period to complete before actually listening. At the moment, it's at 78 hours and so I'm having to chill 'til 8pm Friday. (I'm really hoping my 5.1 pass through updated processor is back by then -- it ought to ship any day.)

I would think the Level I is a pretty safe and high value move. I got enough stuff done to water-down the bang-for-the-buck ratio (the old diminishing returns problem), but that's only because I have high hopes for the surround channels. Whether it really pans out will depend on the discs I get (and the effectiveness of the mods, of course). Still, I figure I'm prepared.

Since you actually had the stock unit for a month, it should be fun to see what you think of the difference.

Cheers -- Trevor

 

[Bruce Abar]

Wow! you sure have patients. I dont think I could wait 200 hours for break-in before at least listening at least once. Have fun on Friday

 

[TrevorS]

Hi, Bruce

I'm afraid this last six months has been one exercise in patience after another on my system (as with the processor I mentioned in my last post). Still, every once in a while, I can go look at the player display and watch the digits change, kind of comforting in a way.

Cheers -- Trevor

 

[Lewis Besze]

Vladimir,
exellent post!

Trevor,
for that price you might have to "settle" for an "unauthorized" seller like I did.They give me store warranty,though this was a totally legit product with factory seal and warranty card.

Soundpros

 

[TrevorS]

Lewis

That's fine as long as the store service comes through for you if and when needed. The factory warranty card may be included, but the dealer is not authorized by Denon to sell their products and so factory warranty coverage is not provided -- that is the cost of the lower price.

If a person asks what is a reasonable price to pay, it's appropriate to inform them if the price range you quote is actually gray market -- non-factory authorized, non-factory supported.

-- Trevor

 

[Lewis Besze]

If a person asks what is a reasonable price to pay, it's appropriate to inform them if the price range you quote is actually gray market -- non-factory authorized, non-factory supported.

He asked for a reasonable price!That was my idea of reasonable,YMMV.
Also Soundpros are fully authorized to sell Denon products out of their store locally,but not through the internet!
Gray market implies that it meant for a different market I.E. other then the US.It's clearly not the case here!I'm not even gonna get into the fact why Denon will honor the warranty if they wanna keep having license in a certain state.

 

[TrevorS]

Denon does list Sound Pro as an authorized dealer in AZ and SD, but if the chain is authorized for internet purchases, then providing a store warranty seems more than a little peculiar (at best, they can only expect to lose money in repairs). Some states have warranty exclusion overides, but if the sale itself is unauthorized, it makes little sense, legal or otherwise, that a manufacturer be forced to honor the warranty. It would be interesting to find out what Denon has to say about it.

Here is Denon's website disclaimer:

"CONSUMER ALERT: The warranty on DENON Electronics products is NOT VALID if the products have been purchased from an unauthorized dealer/E-Tailer or if the original factory serial number has been removed, defaced or replaced in any way. Recently DENON Electronics has become aware of numerous instances in which such serial number tampering has occurred. Unauthorized dealers/E-Tailers and/or their suppliers frequently alter the serial numbers in an effort to prevent manufacturers from tracing the supplier source. DENON Electronics sells products through authorized retail/E-Tail channels to insure that consumers obtain quality pre-sale and after-sale support and service. PROTECT YOUR WARRANTY. Buy from an authorized DENON Electronics dealer/E-Tailer. Check the unit and its packaging to determine whether the factory serial number may have been altered. If in doubt, call DENON Electronics at (973) 396-0810."

-- Trevor

P.S. Denon doesn't list SoundPros.com (or Sound Pros, or SoundPros) as an authorized dealer in San Diego, CA, or anywhere else in the US. Ergo, it doesn't look like your factory warranty card is worth a whole lot -- hence the store warranty.

 

[TrevorS]

Regarding the definition of the gray market, here is a FAQ provided by the "Anti-Gray Market Alliance".

QUOTE:

Gray Market FAQ:

Q: What is gray marketing or illegal brokering?

The Gray Market is the unauthorized sale of new, branded products diverted from authorized distribution channels or imported into a country for sale without the consent or knowledge of the manufacturer. It is the unauthorized sale or improper diversion of new products obtained under deceptive circumstances. This would mean new, branded products being diverted from authorized distribution channels or imported into another country without permission of the original manufacturer.

Q. What is the size of the gray market for the technology industry?

Industry research released in February 2003 from KPMG and AGMA shows that gray market sales of IT products account for over $40 billion in revenue each year, collectively costing IT manufacturers up to $5 billion annually in lost profits.

Q. How does gray marketing work?

Products on the gray market are shopped globally and usually move through multiple tiers before reaching an end user, often supported by worldwide broker networks. Some elements include abuse of discount programs, fraudulent or falsified contracts or end user information, Other gray market practices include over-ordering on valid accounts with discounts, and selling those products in a manner not permitted by contracts or program terms and conditions. Inappropriate disposal of end of life/excess or obsolete inventories may also feed the gray market.

Q. How is this different from items that are auctioned from defunct businesses
like dot-com companies or items on a website auction?

AGMA companies are focused on articulating what it means to buy "new" products from authorized distribution channels. When you buy outside the authorized channel, there is enormous downside potential. Products are often represented as "new" when that is clearly not the case. AGMA is not concerned with auctions or other sales of used product that clearly represent the products as used, and not new, or that do not make other misrepresentations about the products.

Q. Isn't the gray market fueled by internal sales program and policies at the
manufacturers?

Gray market goods are shopped globally for best prices. They can move from multiple tiers before they actually reach the end-customers. Often times a shadow inventory will exist inside and outside of authorized distribution channels making it difficult to forecast true demand. Resellers may abuse discount programs that are legitimately crafted by manufacturers to compete in the global marketplace. These sales programs can be exploited and targeted for weaknesses that exist inherently in some of these programs.

Individual manufacturers need to look internally to understand how products are moving through legitimate channels and if possible to verify legitimate customers. Manufacturers can look at the terms and condition of contracts with their channel partners, put discipline around internal business practices to close loopholes that may be exploited, and pursue litigation against companies that willfully abuse practices, breach contracts and provide fraudulent information.

Q. Where does the gray market happen in the distribution cycle?

Gray marketing can occur anywhere in the distribution cycle. It can occur when a broker poses as a reseller, when a reseller who acts as both a broker and a value-added reseller acts outside terms and conditions of distribution contracts or special discount programs.. It can occur in every touch point in the distribution model.

:ENDQUOTE

-- Trevor

 

[JackS]

I wouldn't dare argue with the knowledge-able presentation above but would state a personal opinion that "gray mkt" can also be a product of the manufacturers themselves. This would explain the existance of products designed to sell anywhere on the globe. Such products will always have the dual voltage switch because these products can and are sold anywhere. Typically these products are sold without a warranty or if there is a warranty, it is very limited. Also for this reason these products are almost always sold at bargain prices. The products themselves should be of equal quality to the authoriized and fully warranted products sold by the "authorized dealers. Manufactures may state public warnings but are in fact producers of this stuff and to think they are somehow completely out-of-the-loop and would have you and I believe they are non partisans is not realistic.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Denon's scare tactic seems works on some people.This has been debated to nose bleed.Seems like you have an aweful lot of time in your hand,so why don't you look up "price fixing" and what US laws prohibit as such,also the various state's laws on warranty.
Good Luck!

 

[Doug_B]

Getting back to the discussion of a modded player, I can't say I'm surprised at the inconsistency of reviews as well as the "Marketing" statements (which can also be inconsistent) made by those who sell mods. In the end, one cannot base a purchase decision on a given reviewer's perception of a unit, whether modded or not, even if such reviewer provides a consistent opinion over time. We try to narrow down our choices in many cases based on the opinions of many, and then we may be fortunate enough to make the best decision by first hand experience.

A modded unit will typically be more of a risk to purchase than a stock unit because we must typically risk the purchase prior to obtaining first hand experience. There is also less pre-screening from others, to the extent one relies on other to do such pre-screening. Although I generally assume that mods will typically "improve" the sound of a unit, based on some nebulous majority opinion as to what "improved" means, the resulting sound may not be any more pleasing (or potentially even worse) for one's ears on one's own system.

As folks like Ric Schultz and Dan Wright (and possibly others) prepare for their own version of 2900 mods, it's practically guaranteed that each version will have a different sonic signature. Who's to say which one is best, whatever that means? More importantly, how can one decide which mod to get, if you're in the market? One will just have to roll the dice, based on reputation, the details of what modifications are performed, ouija board, etc.

With all that said, I'm planning on a Dan Wright mod of the Pioneer 47Ai, which will include a tube-based 2ch output stage. Will be sending it in this week, if all goes according to plan. My dice, my roll.

Doug

 

[TrevorS]

Hi, Doug

Like you say, a roll of the dice. There really is no such thing as best per se', only best fit on an individual basis. It's too bad we can't audition modded players, but auditioning stock equipment can be a problem too. Since a dealer audition system is virtually guaranteed to be different from mine (even if only the cables), there is little likelihood the sound would be the same. The best hope is if you can take a demo unit home to audition, a new unit is a question mark since it hasn't had a chance to burn-in yet (but demo units can be hard to pry out of the store). I think it's pretty much always a roll of the dice.

The biggest difference between mod and non-mod, is you can usually return a stock unit if you quickly decide you aren't satisfied, that isn't an option with mods. I have enough background to be satisfied the changes CAN make a highly audible improvement (this is definitely not a question of 'snake oil'). We just need to evaluate the results for ourselves when the opportunity finally arrives. For me, that kicks off Friday evening.

I'll be interested in learning your reactions to the ModWright package (I'm guessing you are going the whole nine yards since the tube output stage is the uppermost level).

Cheers -- Trevor

 

[Steve_AS]

After all, they could have returned their new player if they were not satisfied with it. So we are talking about people who made a direct comparison of 2900 and 5900 in their system, came to a conclusion that they liked the sound of 5900 better and than got rid of their old 2900.

And again, there are any number of reasons *other than* the actual sound of the two, that *could* reasonably account for this behavior. Bias is not always, or even often, conscious. And the answers people give when asked why they did something, are not always based on sound reasoning. So to say it *must* have been due to the sound, because that's what the people said, is overstating the case.