A Few Words About A few words about...™ The Wild Bunch -- in BD & HD (6 Viewers)

[Mike Boone]

Again, take it to an appropriate thread. If the main topic of this thread has been beaten to death then let it die.

I must just be imagining the fact Robert, that on any given day, on almost any thread that has a good number of posts, you will find posts from members which are responses to statements from other members where both the statements and responses are off the thread's topic. And since my one paragraph response was so brief, occupying so little space, I find it curious that you chose to single me out when what I engaged in is not only something that is extremely common on HTF, but most members who engage in it, do so with posts that are considerably longer than what I wrote.


And BTW, part of my brief post was posing a question to RAH regarding display technology, a topic that he himself chose to include as part of the content of this thread, though that itself actually diverges from the subject denoted by this thread's title.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Mike,


This isn't up for debate so please drop it.

 

[Mike Boone]

Mike,


This isn't up for debate so please drop it.

Will respectfully comply, sir.

 

[Spencer Draper]

Well it's taken me many, many years but I just saw the 1994 print this morning of the "Director's Cut" and found it to be a very interesting experience. Of course the "director's cut" is merely a marketing term and is instead the full length original 145 min version with the cut ten minutes restored to the needlessly shortened 135 min US original release version.

The Blu-ray is the most technically accurate release we have to date but it doesn't compare to the print that despite being very warts and all in approach blows it away. Skin tones finally seemed spot on which has been one of the hardest things for any video release to nail down.

However it is a problematic print due to the baked in damage and several instances of:
color timing being very different in certain sequences only to suddenly jump to normal looking footage, several scenes are very dark and obscure details, missing frames causing a black screen three times. I'm sure these issues and some of the sound mixing is what led scholars to have issues with the 1994 prints as indicated in some of Paul Seydor's Peckinpah books.

But that being said when these occurrences don't happen finally I saw a version without any of the problems I have had with each of the main video releases from the Laserdisc onwards. Beautiful color, imagery and detail and this was only the 35mm version and not the 70mm blowups made back then. From all my research over the years it seems WB did this to follow the Blade Runner Director's Cut success and reconstituted the European full length version under the director's cut moniker. Then after getting the release finally appealed thorough the MPAA who had slapped a NC-17 on it, Warner focused on the Laser and home video release in marketing and making a further cleaned up video master.

Unfortunately the sound still suffers as it doesn't seem quite right in levels. Presumably they used the six track master from the 70mm roadshow releases but most US audiences saw the general release in mono only. I will say this SR print sounded better than the home 5.1 releases as it was much more unified in terms of levels. But it did continually feel monoish in quiet scenes and not as good as most 70mm tracks from this era that have made it through mostly untouched to video. I do think the LD 2.0 pcm matrix is a good representation of this-however the print was apparently carrying 5.1 sr-d that just wouldn't read right at the theater.

I'm sure if it exists they're sitting on the rumored 4K master until the purported "hope to God it never happens but it probably will" remake to then release as a tie-in.

The current Blu-ray is a bit of a mess and extremely outdated plus it is based around the old HD-DVD era limitations. It should have been redone a decade ago but still betters the SE DVD. Then again there are a few reasons why I even like the old LD master and first flipper DVD despite the magenta push here and there. I'm still not happy with the Laserdisc, flipper DVD, SE DVD or Blu-ray version.

I think the difference in masters has led to a lot of the back and forth discussion in this thread and in other places. Each has it's own flaws that has become more visible over time with improvements in technology. For example: I remember being surprised at how good the Laserdisc was and that it didn't suffer the early DVD problems of the first DVD release, but after upgrading my gear found the LD to be riddled with tons of aliasing.
The SE DVD fixed a lot of issues from the first DVD but introduced new issues of its own. The Blu-rya then did the same but despite its issues is the best overall so far. I think my biggest gripe with that disc outside of DNR and such is color and particularly in the skin tones.
I always wanted to wait to share my findings over the years until I could finally see a print of some type. I've wanted to see one of these since first renting the full version from the video store as a kid and being absolutely obliterated by this towering work. It sill has its power as the audience today filed out in absolute stunned silence.

I'd love to one day find the elusive CAV box set version and the earlier Japanese LD of the full European cut with the mono. I've heard samples of the mono from the old analog transfers and it sounds pretty good for what it is.

Chances of Warner including the original mono, optional intermission card and a better presentation of the 70mm mix?
Held until hell freezes over or someone says different unfortunately it seems.

 

[OliverK]

Glad you like the 35mm version and its colors. I saw a reel of the 70mm BlowUp some years ago and it was unfortunately already faded but very detailed in bright scenes. It made the Blu-ray look like a DVD.

This year would be a good year for an anniversary release so we'd probably see anything they have prepared later this year, at least on Blu-ray.

 

[Alan Tully]

A stonewall classic, & this year is the 50th Anniversary. The thoughts I had the last time I looked at the Blu-ray was that the picture is just a bit too red up to the train robbery & fine after that. The big thing is the dated look to the old Blu-ray, with all the sharpening, a more organic transfer from the original negs would be just the job. Will it happen?

 

[haineshisway]

There is nothing good about the Blu-ray of The Wild Bunch. Let's hope they do a proper transfer this year.

 

[JoshZ]

I remember being surprised at how good the Laserdisc was and that it didn't suffer the early DVD problems of the first DVD release, but after upgrading my gear found the LD to be riddled with tons of aliasing.

When watching a Laserdisc on a modern digital screen, aliasing is typically caused by the deinterlacing chip in the display (or whatever component you have doing it) not doing a good job of converting the interlaced video on the disc to progressive scan. An outboard video processor such as Lumagen may sometimes help with that. It's not necessarily an inherent flaw of the disc.

 

[PMF]

There is nothing good about the Blu-ray of The Wild Bunch. Let's hope they do a proper transfer this year.

I concur on a newer transfer, as well; but for a 2007 BD, I had thought the disc looked pretty darned good.
But, then again, haineshisway's equipment is undoubtedly far better than mine.
Nonetheless, in these passing dozen years we have grown to know too much.
Technology has advanced in leaps and bounds; and with that, so have our expectations;
for whatever levels our panels and sound systems may be, both our eyes and ears have also become further developed, attuned and sophisticated...that is, if one is savvy enough to be a member of HTF.
But all said and told, "The Wild Bunch" is prime for a visual overhaul; and hopefully on a 4K/UHD level.

FILE UNDER: The Ballard of Sam.

 

[PMF]

On the one hand, we have Robert Harris who rated this 2007 BD of "The Wild Bunch" as "Extremely Highly Recommended". On the other hand, we have haineshisway who feels that "there is nothing good about this" very same edition. Being that I respect both sets of eyes, I wonder how each had arrived at two such very different opinions?

I grabbed this edition of "The Wild Bunch" early on and thought; despite my meager display and speakers; that it looked better than I had ever seen. Yes, it's now 12 years later and something better is more than likely possible. Still, and without creating a flurry of debates, I wonder if this could lead to a diagnostic and technical discussion as what both parties were seeing?

Finally, if both Robert Harris and Bruce feel so compelled to comment, I wonder what specifics they might like to see addressed by Warner's; if a 4K/UHD were created for this 50th Anniversary year of "The Wild Bunch"?

 

[Robert Harris]

On the one hand, we have Robert Harris who rated this 2007 BD of "The Wild Bunch" as "Extremely Highly Recommended". On the other hand, we have haineshisway who feels that "there is nothing good about this" very same edition. Being that I respect both sets of eyes, I wonder how each had arrived at two very different opinions?

I grabbed this edition of "The Wild Bunch" early on and thought; despite my meager display and speakers; that it looked better than I had ever seen. Yes, it's now 12 years later and something better is more than likely possible. Still, and without creating a flurry of debates, I wonder if this could lead to a diagnostic and technical discussion as what both parties are seeing that led to two very different opinions?

Finally, if both Robert Harris and Bruce feel so compelled to comment, I wonder what specifics they might like to see addressed by Warner's; if a 4K/UHD were created for this 50th Anniversary year of "The Wild Bunch"?

Easy. A 4k of the Roadshow, with intermission.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Easy. A 4k of the Roadshow, with intermission.

Yes, indeed! One of my favorite films of all-time. I consider the final walk by the Bunch, one of the greatest film sequences that I ever seen leading up to a film climax. I loved that sequence more than the gun battle.

Lets Go!

 

[Danny_N]

My favourite scene of The Wild Bunch is when they leave the village while La Golondrina is being played/sung:



I hope we'll get a new release this year. And while they're at it I hope Warner will finally release Pat Garret as well.

 

[OliverK]

Hard to find one scene that stands out in The Wild Bunch as there are so many poignant scenes in it. And yes, Pat Parret is long overdue.

 

[PMF]

[...]And yes, Pat Parret is long overdue.

Warner's putting out a Blu of Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid qualifies as a Day One purchase for me; and a pre-order, if Pat and the Kid were prepped as a 4K. BTW, wouldn't it be something of a coup if they could capture a new retrospective commentary track that had Kris Kristofferson and Bob Dylan paired in conference? More than cool, it would be Wild.

 

[PMF]

Well, if ever I learned a lesson on reading threads within their entirety.
I read RAH's review of "The Wild Bunch" a few years back, liked what I read, and made purchase of said BD.
Fast forward to this final week of June 2019.
Upon my logging onto HTF, I noticed in the "Recent Reply" column of an entry from haineshisway.
Ah, "The Wild Bunch". "I wonder if there's a newer transfer being discussed", thought I.
And so it was that I hit the link and proceeded to this very thread.
From there I read and scrolled only the current messages from this page and week;
as there hadn't been any newer activity in over 3.5 years.
From there, I naively posted my question on Message #110.
I say naive because between my reading of page one from many years, ago;
and my readings of only this week's messages from page six;
I came to realize that I had never, at any time, actually taken in the other four pages and 80 messages that were in-between.
Well, today I did. And yikes !!!
So many discussions had already transpired on the very topic that I had asked about.
Yup, all of the answers to my questions were already addressed. And then some, I might add.
Well, there it is; sometimes we respond or ask questions based solely on the current page we're reading.
I, for one, will have to take a bit more time when revisiting the older threads; read it all;
not just the bookend pages, but everything in-between.

 

[OliverK]

Warner's putting out a Blu of Pat Garret and Billy the Kid qualifies as a Day One purchase for me; and a pre-order, if Pat and the Kid were prepped as a 4K. BTW, wouldn't it be something of a coup if they could capture a new retrospective commentary track that had Kris Kristofferson and Bob Dylan paired in conference? More than cool, it would be Wild.

Hard to say how a commentary track with Kristofferson and Dylan would work but I would surely appreciate new interviews with these two or anybody else attached to the production if they are up to it.

As for Warner releasing Pat Garret in 4k I would be willing to preorder that one and a few dozen others if they really release some of their classics on UHD discs with good quality (4k and above) masters, bring it on Warner

 

[PMF]

Let me clear the clutter of my week upon this thread and simplify the rest.

Dear Warner's and WAC,

I would like to purchase a 4K/UHD of "The Wild Bunch" on its 50th Anniversary year.
I should also like to purchase "Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid" on either a BD or 4K/UHD, as well.

Sincerely,
PMF

 

[Robin9]

W

Let me clear the clutter of my week upon this thread and simplify the rest.

Dear Warner's and WAC,

I would like to purchase a 4K/UHD of "The Wild Bunch" on its 50th Anniversary year.
I should also like to purchase "Pat Garret and Billy the Kid" on either a 4K/UHD, as well.

Sincerely,
PMF

Well, I for one - and I don't think I'm alone - would not buy a 4K/UHD of this film unless I was certain that the colors were right. What on earth would be the point of a 4K disc with the same wrong colors as the Blu-ray disc?

 

[Robert Crawford]

W

Well, I for one - and I don't think I'm alone - would not buy a 4K/UHD of this film unless I was certain that the colors were right. What on earth would be the point of a 4K disc with the same wrong colors as the Blu-ray disc?

Please remind me how the colors are wrong again?