A Few Words About A few words about...™ Singin' in the Rain -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[PaulMSchneider]

I want to weigh in here, because I'm really stunned that this Blu-ray Disc has been getting such high praise on the forum.
I understand the hurdles the restoration team encountered to get it to look "this good," but shouldn't the reviews reflect the end result and not the arduous process?
The end result, in my opinion, is a big disappointment. The image is too dark and muddy at times. Details are lost completely in the blacks (see Gene Kelly's black tuxedo early on and Cosmo's navy blue overcoat in the opening scene). Shadow details are gone entirely, in some cases. There are strong halos and edge enhancement throughout (really strong around Kelly's tuxedo in the night shots). Colors, on the whole, are over-saturated, particularly in the darker hues.
This may be the best "Singin' in the Rain" has looked in years, or can look now, but it still isn't "excellent." It's merely "good" at best and not much better than the standard-def DVD with a good up-conversion overall. I would call it a marginal upgrade.
I'm grateful for the work that was done to get it "this far," but it's still a long way off from an outstanding HD image.
The sound, however, was a noticeable improvement over previous releases.

 

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by PaulMSchneider /t/322127/a-few-words-about-singin-in-the-rain-in-blu-ray/180#post_3956092
I want to weigh in here, because I'm really stunned that this Blu-ray Disc has been getting such high praise on the forum.
I understand the hurdles the restoration team encountered to get it to look "this good," but shouldn't the reviews reflect the end result and not the arduous process?
The end result, in my opinion, is a big disappointment. The image is too dark and muddy at times. Details are lost completely in the blacks (see Gene Kelly's black tuxedo early on and Cosmo's navy blue overcoat in the opening scene). Shadow details are gone entirely, in some cases. There are strong halos and edge enhancement throughout (really strong around Kelly's tuxedo in the night shots). Colors, on the whole, are over-saturated, particularly in the darker hues.
This may be the best "Singin' in the Rain" has looked in years, or can look now, but it still isn't "excellent." It's merely "good" at best and not much better than the standard-def DVD with a good up-conversion overall. I would call it a marginal upgrade.
I'm grateful for the work that was done to get it "this far," but it's still a long way off from an outstanding HD image.
The sound, however, was a noticeable improvement over previous releases.

May I ask for your viewing environment, and also a time code for the Kelly/tux/night scene you reference?

RAH

 

[PaulMSchneider]

I can't give you a time code just now, but the two scenes that drew my attention (in a bad way) are early on when Gene Kelly is standing on the curb with Cosmo after the first movie premiere (before the autograph seekers attack him), and later when he chases Kathy out of the house after the big party (when she throws the pie at Lina). Big edge enchahncement and prominent halo around his tux.
I have no problem with other BDs. I'm very happy with the restorations on An American In Paris, Gigi, and especially Ben-Hur. No muddy shadows, no overly dark image or loss of detail in the blacks. I was thrilled with the recent restoration on Wings. And maybe my expectations were raised too high by the "excellent" reviews that Singin' in the Rain received here, but it ended up being a major disappointment. I actually got out the old 2-Disc DVD, and I can see more detail in the blacks and shadows there (in SD).
For what it's worth (I think my settings are fine, as I said, all other comparable discs from this era look great), I have a 58" Panasonic 1080p Plasma, Bose speaker system, and an Onkyo receiver.
I think it's perfectly fair to say the restoration is "remarkable," considering the source material, but I can't remotely agree that the results are "excellent." "Good" at best.
For me, this disc reminds me of the old "Man Who Knew Too Much" DVD from Universal, where everything was too dark and the blacks took over all the detail in the shadows.

 

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by PaulMSchneider /t/322127/a-few-words-about-singin-in-the-rain-in-blu-ray/180#post_3956197
I can't give you a time code just now, but the two scenes that drew my attention (in a bad way) are early on when Gene Kelly is standing on the curb with Cosmo after the first movie premiere (before the autograph seekers attack him), and later when he chases Kathy out of the house after the big party (when she throws the pie at Lina). Big edge enchahncement and prominent halo around his tux.
I have no problem with other BDs. I'm very happy with the restorations on An American In Paris, Gigi, and especially Ben-Hur. No muddy shadows, no overly dark image or loss of detail in the blacks. I was thrilled with the recent restoration on Wings. And maybe my expectations were raised too high by the "excellent" reviews that Singin' in the Rain received here, but it ended up being a major disappointment. I actually got out the old 2-Disc DVD, and I can see more detail in the blacks and shadows there (in SD).
For what it's worth (I think my settings are fine, as I said, all other comparable discs from this era look great), I have a 58" Panasonic 1080p Plasma, Bose speaker system, and an Onkyo receiver.
I think it's perfectly fair to say the restoration is "remarkable," considering the source material, but I can't remotely agree that the results are "excellent." "Good" at best.
For me, this disc reminds me of the old "Man Who Knew Too Much" DVD from Universal, where everything was too dark and the blacks took over all the detail in the shadows.

What you're seeing are not problems. Merely the film. The shots you note are attached to the A and B sides of printer functions, which means dupe.

The affected shots are 4th generation image elements, and look precisely as they should, based upon 1952 printing technologies.

The shadow detail in the blacks is especially notable, as it survives the duping process with differentiation of densities reasonably intact.

Not only is everything here perfect, but had it been scanned from the original negatives, it would look precisely the same on Blu-ray.

RAH

 

[PaulMSchneider]

Hmmm ... then how do you account for this, which I mentioned above?
I actually got out the old 2-Disc DVD, and I can see more detail in the blacks and shadows there (in SD).

 

[haineshisway]

I can't give you a time code just now, but the two scenes that drew my attention (in a bad way) are early on when Gene Kelly is standing on the curb with Cosmo after the first movie premiere (before the autograph seekers attack him), and later when he chases Kathy out of the house after the big party (when she throws the pie at Lina). Big edge enchahncement and prominent halo around his tux.
I have no problem with other BDs. I'm very happy with the restorations on An American In Paris, Gigi, and especially Ben-Hur. No muddy shadows, no overly dark image or loss of detail in the blacks. I was thrilled with the recent restoration on Wings. And maybe my expectations were raised too high by the "excellent" reviews that Singin' in the Rain received here, but it ended up being a major disappointment. I actually got out the old 2-Disc DVD, and I can see more detail in the blacks and shadows there (in SD).
For what it's worth (I think my settings are fine, as I said, all other comparable discs from this era look great), I have a 58" Panasonic 1080p Plasma, Bose speaker system, and an Onkyo receiver.
I think it's perfectly fair to say the restoration is "remarkable," considering the source material, but I can't remotely agree that the results are "excellent." "Good" at best.
For me, this disc reminds me of the old "Man Who Knew Too Much" DVD from Universal, where everything was too dark and the blacks took over all the detail in the shadows.

Well, here's the thing - I'm NOT happy with An American in Paris OR Gigi - I think they both fail in terms of color. I don't think the Blu of Singin' in the Rain is perfect either, but it's MUCH better than either of those two films you mention.

 

[PaulMSchneider]

I'm sure you can make a case for the color being not to your liking for Gigi and An American in Paris. I mentioned them because they also both have extended night scenes, some on sound stages and some on location, and I can still see the actors and their dark clothes. Lots of rich details in the shadows.
But there are times on the Singin' in the Rain BD, where Gene Kelly's tux (and other dark suits on characters and crowds) virtually disappear into a solid black mass. I can't tell where his lapel is, where his coat ends and his trousers begin. A few times I couldn't even distinguish him from the background. It was just a solid black wall of color. That's the worst example, but even in the silent movie montage where Cosmo is playing the piano. It's fairly dark on the left side of the screen by his piano, but all detail was gone.
Getting out the 2-Disc DVD, it's better. Still dark, but a lot more details. To me, that means a step down.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I usually do agree with your assessment of the end results, but not this time. And it's one of my favorite films. I was expecting better after everything I'd read. I would at least hope to see as much information on screen as I did with the DVD. That's not the case here.

 

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by PaulMSchneider /t/322127/a-few-words-about-singin-in-the-rain-in-blu-ray/180#post_3956282
I'm sure you can make a case for the color being not to your liking for Gigi and An American in Paris. I mentioned them because they also both have extended night scenes, some on sound stages and some on location, and I can still see the actors and their dark clothes. Lots of rich details in the shadows.
But there are times on the Singin' in the Rain BD, where Gene Kelly's tux (and other dark suits on characters and crowds) virtually disappear into a solid black mass. I can't tell where his lapel is, where his coat ends and his trousers begin. A few times I couldn't even distinguish him from the background. It was just a solid black wall of color. That's the worst example, but even in the silent movie montage where Cosmo is playing the piano. It's fairly dark on the left side of the screen by his piano, but all detail was gone.
Getting out the 2-Disc DVD, it's better. Still dark, but a lot more details. To me, that means a step down.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I usually do agree with your assessment of the end results, but not this time. And it's one of my favorite films. I was expecting better after everything I'd read. I would at least hope to see as much information on screen as I did with the DVD. That's not the case here.

Other discs aside, I'd suggest that you have your monitor calibrated, as there are no problems with black levels on the disc.

RAH

 

[John Hermes]

I thought the color, contrast, and black level were fine. I wish it were sharper but coming from where it did, I guess that is understandable.

 

[haineshisway]

I'm sure you can make a case for the color being not to your liking for Gigi and An American in Paris. I mentioned them because they also both have extended night scenes, some on sound stages and some on location, and I can still see the actors and their dark clothes. Lots of rich details in the shadows.
But there are times on the Singin' in the Rain BD, where Gene Kelly's tux (and other dark suits on characters and crowds) virtually disappear into a solid black mass. I can't tell where his lapel is, where his coat ends and his trousers begin. A few times I couldn't even distinguish him from the background. It was just a solid black wall of color. That's the worst example, but even in the silent movie montage where Cosmo is playing the piano. It's fairly dark on the left side of the screen by his piano, but all detail was gone.
Getting out the 2-Disc DVD, it's better. Still dark, but a lot more details. To me, that means a step down.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I usually do agree with your assessment of the end results, but not this time. And it's one of my favorite films. I was expecting better after everything I'd read. I would at least hope to see as much information on screen as I did with the DVD. That's not the case here.

It's not really me making a case for the color on Gigi and Paris - neither looks like it should and I know both films very well. As I said, I don't think Singin' in the Rain is perfect, but it can't be, really, which is a tragedy when you think about it, in terms of film history.

 

[Michel_Hafner]

Not only is everything here perfect, but had it been scanned from the original negatives, it would look precisely the same on Blu-ray.
RAH

I guess you mean concerning shadows and colour. Other things would not look exactly the same, of course.

 

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Michel_Hafner /t/322127/a-few-words-about-singin-in-the-rain-in-blu-ray/210#post_3956644
I guess you mean concerning shadows and colour. Other things would not look exactly the same, of course.

There is no discernible difference, whether working from original three-strip negatives or derived fine grain masters, when it comes to the final Blu-ray.

RAH

 

[PaulMSchneider]

As I said, I don't think Singin' in the Rain is perfect, but it can't be, really, which is a tragedy when you think about it, in terms of film history.

It is a tragedy, yes. But it's also a crime when the Blu-ray Disc release looks worse than the older DVD release by the same studio.

 

[FoxyMulder]

Originally Posted by PaulMSchneider /t/322127/a-few-words-about-singin-in-the-rain-in-blu-ray/210#post_3985537
It is a tragedy, yes. But it's also a crime when the Blu-ray Disc release looks worse than the older DVD release by the same studio.

Explain to me why you think that. ?

 

[marknyc]

I was just about to order this when I saw PaulMSchneider's post. I didn't want to buy a poor copy, so I downloaded a 1080i rip of the Blu-Ray.
It looks fantastic! I couldn't disagree with his comments more. I just ordered the Blu-ray, as should everyone who loves this film.

 

[Mark Oates]

Took delivery of my copy of Singin In The Rain and watched it over the weekend. As ever it was a joyous experience. The old movie has never looked better and this is my third digital dip.
Just thought you might like to know.

 

[marknyc]

Got mine, too, and it looks gorgeous. I can't understand PaulMSchneider's criticisms at all.

 

[benbess]

Singin' looks very good to my eyes. And what a wonderful film! But to me the PQ of American in Paris is a little bit better. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Tony Bensley]

At $33.99 Canadian, I couldn't resist the Amazon.ca "Deal of the Day" for the "60th Anniversary Ultimate Collector's Edition!"


That said, I'm a bit puzzled by a couple of things:


- While this isn't intended as a criticism per se, how is it that the lack of an original mono soundtrack hasn't garnered any real attention? Yes, I've read that the 5.1 Surround is excellent and it retains the humble qualities of the original monaural sound, but still?


- That after 3 plus years, such an amazing, iconic classic, still hasn't sold all 75,000 limited edition sets, though to be fair, neither has the 75th Anniversary Editions of "The Wizard Of Oz" and "Gone With The Wind;" but I think the latter two can be at least partly attributed to repeat buyer's fatigue!


Nevertheless, SINGIN' IN THE RAIN is a classic Musical/Comedy that I've LOVED since first laying eyes on the first VideoDisc version back around 1982! I even remember the exact spot where Side A ended--The conclusion of "Moses Supposes His Toeses Are Roses," with Cosmo's mouth opened wide as he and Don sing the letter "A" before the fadeout! Yet somehow, I never quite got around to purchasing the previous 2 DVD set or the more recent single Blu-ray version; thus the boxed set, complete with the lovely looking, well illustrated book, and even the Umbrella (Which appears to be at least somewhat functional!), looks to be a great treat!


CHEERS!


Tony

 

[titch]

This weekend I watched the region "B" Studiocanal 4K restoration of Powell & Pressburger's The Tales Of Hoffmann (1951) and compared it to Singin' In The Rain (1952). If you want to see what a 4K Singin' In The Rain restoration might have looked like, had it come from the original negatives, then take a look at The Tales Of Hoffmann for truly sensational Technicolour delirium. And the details are razor sharp too.