A Few Words About A few words about...™ Cleopatra (1963) - U.S. Release -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[David_B_K]

It's too bad Fox decided only to capitalize on Burton and Taylor's affair by releasing it as one film. Wouldn't the studio have been able to generate more income had they released it as two films?

Also, my question regarding the presence of directional dialogue on the BD has still not been answered. Is it there? Or is it gone?

I saw the film theatrically this past weekend at a Cinemark theater. It definitely had directional dialogue in the theatrical presentation. I spot-checked a few scenes on the British Blu-ray and did not discern any directional dialogue on the DTS HD Master track. The timbre of the sound would change, depending on if they changed the angle and someone was now in a different place in the room; but the dialog kept coming out of my center speaker.

As to capitalizing on the Burton-Taylor story, I suggest watching or re-watching the documentary about the making of the film and listenin to some of the stories on the commentary track. It had become a huge financial liability by the time it was finished. Even though I am a fan of the film, I found it rather shocking to see just how deep a hole Manciewicz & Co. had dug for themselves. We are fortunate that the studio let the film get finished and continued to invest in its release and marketing. It was actually the highest-grossing film of the year, but was still considered an unsuccessful film because it still showed a loss even after a successful run.

 

[john a hunter]

I saw the film theatrically this past weekend at a Cinemark theater. It definitely had directional dialogue in the theatrical presentation. I spot-checked a few scenes on the British Blu-ray and did not discern any directional dialogue on the DTS HD Master track. The timbre of the sound would change, depending on if they changed the angle and someone was now in a different place in the room; but the dialog kept coming out of my center speaker.

As to capitalizing on the Burton-Taylor story, I suggest watching or re-watching the documentary about the making of the film and listenin to some of the stories on the commentary track. It had become a huge financial liability by the time it was finished. Even though I am a fan of the film, I found it rather shocking to see just how deep a hole Manciewicz & Co. had dug for themselves. We are fortunate that the studio let the film get finished and continued to invest in its release and marketing. It was actually the highest-grossing film of the year, but was still considered an unsuccessful film because it still showed a loss even after a successful run.

But it turned a profit with its sale to TV and has been in the black ever since. Further the $40 budget is boosted probably by 50% as the film carried the Studio's overhead for about 2 years when they hardly had anything else in production.

 

[Johnny Angell]

It's too bad Fox decided only to capitalize on Burton and Taylor's affair by releasing it as one film. Wouldn't the studio have been able to generate more income had they released it as two films?

Also, my question regarding the presence of directional dialogue on the BD has still not been answered. Is it there? Or is it gone?

I just watched the 2 hour "Movie that Changed Hollywood" and it mentions that if they released Part 1 (Caesar and Cleo) and 6 months later released Part 2 (Antony and Cleo) who could know if Liz and Dick would still be an item. They wanted Richard and Liz out there as fast as possible. The studio was desperate for money.

But I will lament, oh why couldn't they have saved all the footage?

 

[Ethan Riley]

Picked it up yesterday; I don't know if this has been mentioned, but for those of you who hate Digibooks, this one comes in a slipcover to protect it. This makes for a much more handsome and I think, more successful product.

 

[Douglas R]

I saw the film theatrically this past weekend at a Cinemark theater. It definitely had directional dialogue in the theatrical presentation. I spot-checked a few scenes on the British Blu-ray and did not discern any directional dialogue on the DTS HD Master track. The timbre of the sound would change, depending on if they changed the angle and someone was now in a different place in the room; but the dialog kept coming out of my center speaker.

I checked the UK disc as well and dialogue is directional. When a character is at far right dialogue comes from the right speaker and not from the left speaker. Same of course when a character is at far left. However, dialogue is also heard on the center speaker at all times - which I believe is usual.

 

[John Skoda]

From what I've read, the real problem with creating a long version, even if they had the footage, is there is no final script. What exists on paper is little more than Mankiewicz's first draft. He had only the draft of the first half completed when Fox insisted he start shooting, so he tried shooting during the day and writing at night. With as complicated a production as this, it was more than any human could accomplish.He never had the chance to polish and edit the script down to final form, which is when he would have thought everything through more carefully and decided what should stay and what should be cut. He shot the first draft, in hopes that he could edit all the final footage down to something better, which is pretty much what the four hour version represents. I really like this film, but a longer version would have more details but wouldn't necessarily be better.

BTW, I read through that treatment of what the "uncut" version would have been like. I honestly did not see two hours worth of necessary material there. Sure, there was more depth to some of the supporting characters; but little of the material looked indespensible to me.

 

[GregK]

Edit: This is for anyone with the disc: can somebody confirm whether or not the directional dialogue has been retained on the DTS HD 5.1 track? This site's review said that it had been placed in the center channel.

The occasional directional dialog found in CLEOPATRA is there, but it is somewhat mild. I listened to the Region 1 bluray's DTS-MA 5.1 track, as well as the bluray's Dolby 4.0 mix (btw- kudos to Fox for always doing this) and the old DVD's Dolby 5.1 track. I heard some minor changes in the music when switching between the DTS-MA 5.1 track and the Dolby 4.0 track, but when it came to dialog directionality, they all pretty much sounded the same, and in the same spots of the movie.

I also wanted to mention an observation I've had over the years when listening to multi-channel mixes on the big screen and then at home. In the larger cinemas, the L/C/R spread is of course far wider than what we can get at home, even in a projection layout, where in my case I have roughly six feet between each of the three front speakers. Due to this configuration difference, a multi-channel mix can sound wider in the cinema than they do at home. I've had many instances where I've heard "on-screen" directionality in the theater, think said mix has been slightly narrowed for home video, but then move closer to the screen to hear a wider front channel spread. In many cases, the mix then sounds much closer to what I had recently heard in the theater.

That being said, we all know there have been many mixes altered for home video (sometimes repeatedly), and sadly there have been revisionist who have also felt the need to reduce or eliminate original directional dialog for different reasons. But based on my three auditions, my guess at this time is this is faithful to the original mix.

 

[rsmithjr]

That being said, we all know there have been many mixes altered for home video (sometimes repeatedly), and sadly there have been revisionist who have also felt the need to reduce or eliminate original directional dialog for different reasons. But based on my three auditions, my guess at this time is this is faithful to the original mix.

The directional dialogue is definitely there on the Blu-ray and also in the theatrical presentation.

Another problem is that the original 70mm presentation had a 5-channel front sound stage, not 3 as today's sound mixes have. With 5 channels, the dialogue could be more precisely located. With the unfortunate choice of only 3 front channels, you have to either move the sound or rely on phantom channels 2 and 4.

But Cleopatra's directional dialogue seems fairly close to the original, especially compared to other films. Ben-hur, for example, has all but ruined the directional dialogue in the Blu-ray release.

You really need truly separate speakers well located and preferably a 10-ft screen to appreciate this and other mixes.

 

[Paul Rossen]

Indeed, the recent theatrical showings did have the directional dialogue as described above.

 

[haineshisway]

I can confirm that the US and UK versions are identical in terms of the transfer.

 

[GregK]

The directional dialogue is definitely there on the Blu-ray and also in the theatrical presentation.


You really need truly separate speakers well located and preferably a 10-ft screen to appreciate this and other mixes.

So true. My projection / evaluation room has a rough 18 foot total spread between the L/C/Rs which works quite well, while my living room has maybe a 4 foot total spread between the front three. Even with very aggressive directional dialog mixes like THE ROBE or LOGAN'S RUN, the living room set up makes the front spread mild at best, and often easy to miss.

This is a factor reviewers should take note of when reviewing vintage multi-track mixes.

 

[Paul Rossen]

So true. My projection / evaluation room has a rough 18 foot total spread between the L/C/Rs which works quite well, while my living room has maybe a 4 foot total spread between the front three. Even with very aggressive directional dialog mixes like THE ROBE or LOGAN'S RUN, the living room set up makes the front spread mild at best, and often easy to miss.

This is a factor reviewers should take note of when reviewing vintage multi-track mixes.

Does THE ROBE blu ray have directional dialogue? From what I recall the sound was disappointing as it was all towards the center-even including the Newman score.

 

[bigshot]

The sound quality in this is excellent. There were a few big thwaps in the music that resonated throughout my screening room. And the high frequency cymbal hits were amazingly lifelike. All in all, I'm very happy with this bluray.

 

[Moe Dickstein]

From what I've read, the real problem with creating a long version, even if they had the footage, is there is no final script. What exists on paper is little more than Mankiewicz's first draft. He had only the draft of the first half completed when Fox insisted he start shooting, so he tried shooting during the day and writing at night. With as complicated a production as this, it was more than any human could accomplish.He never had the chance to polish and edit the script down to final form, which is when he would have thought everything through more carefully and decided what should stay and what should be cut. He shot the first draft, in hopes that he could edit all the final footage down to something better, which is pretty much what the four hour version represents. I really like this film, but a longer version would have more details but wouldn't necessarily be better.

You might revise that thought if you read the script. Many logic gaps are solved by the missing footage, the whole sequence with the body of the moneylender for example only makes sense in the long version, as well as all of the palace intrigue in the first hour being vastly improved.

 

[Douglas R]

Does THE ROBE blu ray have directional dialogue? From what I recall the sound was disappointing as it was all towards the center-even including the Newman score.

THE ROBE Blu-ray certainly does have directional dialogue. It sounds great and is far more extreme than CLEOPATRA. The music is spaciously spread across the speakers as well.

 

[Johnny Angell]

You might revise that thought if you read the script. Many logic gaps are solved by the missing footage, the whole sequence with the body of the moneylender for example only makes sense in the long version, as well as all of the palace intrigue in the first hour being vastly improved.

Yeah, I've always wondered about the moneylender. I don't think there's any mention or sight of him until he was tossed over the palace wall.I forgot to mention I put in disc 2 and as soon as the menus came up, I went whoa. This is going to be good. BTW, there's no indication in the digibook packaging where the extras are. I though I remembered reading there were on disc 2 and I was correct.

 

[Charles Smith]

There are extras on both discs.

 

[john a hunter]

THE ROBE Blu-ray certainly does have directional dialogue. It sounds great and is far more extreme than CLEOPATRA. The music is spaciously spread across the speakers as well.

But hardly anything in the surrounds(or" effects track " if we are being chronologically correct)

 

[Rob_Ray]

But hardly anything in the surrounds(or" effects track " if we are being chronologically correct)

I'll always remember Robert Wise's response at a live Q&A session as to why his stereophonic films seldom made use of the surround channel. "I don't want anything that will take the focus away from what's on the screen in front on you." I suspect that was the general consensus back in the fifties and sixties.

 

[john a hunter]

I'll always remember Robert Wise's response at a live Q&A session as to why his stereophonic films seldom made use of the surround channel. "I don't want anything that will take the focus away from what's on the screen in front on you." I suspect that was the general consensus back in the fifties and sixties.

Given that the Robe was the first film to show off Scope's 4 track sound, I find it very hard to believe that the miserable use of the surround track on the BD in any way represents the original. Even more so when I vividly recall a screening the mid 70's at London NFT of an original print that had thunder rumbling around the auditorium during the crucifixion. On the BD it sounds like a summer shower!