Yamaha, This is unacceptable!!! Z9 Issues (1 Viewer)

[Kaj]

Hi,

I bought the Z9 nearly three months ago and i have been having great problems with it and MORE SO, with Yamaha. You may find it interesting. (i also posted at Audioholics and possible elswhere to)

Firstly i want to say the Z9 sound GREAT, my issue is not with that. It's the Video processing that's causing major problems!!!

It's been nearly three months now and in that time Yamaha have had to send out THREE units.

We bought the Z9 partly for the Faroudja DCDi processing as it caught our eye from Yamaha's BIG advertising about this feature and other peoples positive views.

The first Unit we got was a dud it terms of video, it didn't even pass the signal through, not Component GUI, nothing. I think that unit was a Pre release on or something like that (who knows, maybe just faulty). We took it to where we bought it (they were a good help), confirmed it there and they sent for a new one for us.

About a week or two later! We finally hear something about a new one coming for us. It eventually arrives. This one seems ok on first appearances, the Component output worker, the GUI was displayed via it, the Processor would turn on and video was displayed. BUT. on closer inspection we saw that what was being outputted was completely unacceptable. Colour bleeding, artefacts, skewed top 20 or so lines, serious flickering etc.
Without going into major detail we tried everything, three different DVD players, and many DVD's (seeing as that's all were concerned with at the momvent, DVD
s, nothing else). We contacted Yamaha Immediately with the help of the purchase store. It took about a week to get ANY reply and all we got then was told that it is our problem, something to do with our TV and sync problems. This was of course to us outrageous (again, i won't write an essay, but we eliminated that it was our TV as i will show further on), eventually again, about a week and a half later of us constantly contacting them trying to get something done we get told that Yamaha have released a Firmware update that will fix all our Problems and that they will send someone to install it.

Well, this was a complete joke in itself! The guy came (very nice bloke), and the first thing he told us was that he'd never done this sort of thing before, and that he had just joined Yamaha and been with them for four weeks!!!!!!!! already the alarm bells were ringing. It got worse, the guy, no offence to him, didn't seem to know how to use a computer, he was on the phone non-stop to a techi in another state asking and getting instructions on how to Un-zip a file!!!! eventually i couldn't stand it and offered my help here and there.
Three hours later (it was meant to take half an hour) even he gave up because he couldn't get the third update to work (there were three separate files to upload). So, ok, we turned on the Z9, put in a DVD and sure enough, as we told Yamaha a week earlier, it didn't Work, in fact it seemed a bit worse to Yamaha's embaressment, the guy saw for himself.

He went away and promised to contact us the following day. Nothing, we had to ring them, and then Two days later we hear something. They tell us it is our TV and it's not being able to handle the signal and we’d have to live with it. If i went through the details, you'd see how 'illogical' this was. So we sent a rather long email to them, completely showing our case and showing that we're not that silly (available to all if wanted). But not only that, other things they were telling us, supposedly explaining the problem was just plain WRONG, contradicted by reviews, Faroudja (like upconverting ALL interlaced signals to 720p regadless of copyright) etc. (Update, they've now correctlyt old us this isn't the case). Yet no matter how much we showed them (from our point of view that it was the Z9 they always were telling us it wasn't. So finally we said we'd take it to the Store, us the equipment and staff there and test it.

So unplugging the z9 (NOT FUN), lugging it around for the fiftieth time (NOT FUN) we set it up at the store and sure enough, the problem came right along with the Z9! It wasn’t our TV as we said. So the store, who had been Extremely helpful over this time, they even contacted Yamaha.

We didn't hear much from anyone after that (just the store, to our appreciation) only got info a few days later that a new Z9 was shipping.

We get the THIRD Z9 a few days ago. This one we didn't bother taking home, we set it up in the store, with a Denon 2200 DVD player (the one we have at home) and a high end Fujitsu Plasma screen. I think it may have worked for about five minutes, then DIED, went to the same problems as we've had for three months now!!! or maybe we were so bent on getting a working one we fooled ourselves

Is this normal. This is Yamaha's FLAGSHIP model, and we still haven't got a fully working unit to date as far as we're concerned. Not only that we and the store have had to spend ridicules amounts of time, effort, money and lots of panadols trying to fix this problem because it’s the worst support i've had!

ok, fair enough for their cheap $100 model, but this thing cost $10 000! and for that, over a time span of three months we get told basically it's our problem.
I SHOULD NOT have to prove i am right like I did
I SHOULD NOT have to argue with Yamaha
I SHOULD NOT have to waste my time and money to fix something that Yamaha should, or at least each and correct and Show me!
What happened to the Customer is always right!
I was wondering if anyone else has had problems, and if this is what i am expect from Yamaha (though it’s not like they are a small company and comprised of armatures and they do have a fairly good reputation, even with us originally), and is there anyway or anything i can do to get them to do something and not take three months to do it.

I think I shall also contact the Board of Fair Trading, and see what they say about all this.

If there is any help you guys could give, or any suggestions, I would be most appreciative. There are obviously working Z9’s out there, as the recent Review and other happy buyers have confirmed, all I ask Yamaha is that I get one of those or that the problem be shown, and then corrected in a quick and friendly manner, not a pile of rubbish in the Product and in the Service.

Thanks
If there are any details you need I am most happy to give them. Who know maybe it is our problem (though in my mind i'm convinced otherwise) but in anycase Yamaha should be helping, not hindering! No?

 

[Kaj]

I have also posted on other forums in my plea for some help/advice (Audioholics forums, AVS forums, Audioreviews.com Forums, soundandvisionmag.com forums and here) I’m Krazykaj in them all I think or just look for the angry face.

My equipment:

Denon DVD-2200
Tara Labs Interconnects
LG MW-60SZ12 LCD Projection Monitor
Yamaha RX-Z9 (still of course faulty)

i have also used the following equipment (i don't know exact details, sorry):
Sony Trinitron Wega TV
Fujitsu Plasma screen
2 Toshiba budget DVD players
Phillips DVD player
Panasonic DVD player (RP-82 i think???)

Normally I wouldn't be making such a hoo-hah, I’ve had faulty products before, I understand it happens (though not three in a row), but I have never had this type of response as I have had from Yamaha


If you think I am out of line, or have misunderstood things, don’t understand something PLEASE let me know because I want this problem fixed.

Oh yeah, and I’m in Australia but that should make much difference

 

[kevin tate]

Thanks for the alert about this model. With your info, many members will stay away from this model until Yamaha gets its act together.

 

[Kaj]

If your interested or have been following my posts in other forums, here is the email we sent to a number of people, including Yamaha. (it's been edited slightly for privacy reasons)

please let me know if it's any good.


(EDIT)

For a start, we are really frustrated with the seeming Yamaha’s lack of timely response and not even keeping us informed.



Therefore, a day or so ago, my son (ME, kaj (or krazykaj in other forums)) has begun to make enquiries within those in the industry, on the internet, about our problems and experience with Yamaha. While we deeply regret having to do this, but we feel we have been more than generous far too long. Without Yamaha keeping us informed, we feel forced to gather our own information and, more importantly, to create for us a sense of some action.

The responses so far may be of interest to you. The responses should be of a very serious interest to Yamaha’s most senior management in Australia and overseas, especially with the kind of attention my son’s enquiries have generated in barely a day and a half, including on influential web sites.

Even *if* the cause of our Z9 problem is *wholly* from the user end (which we do not agree), Yamaha should be helping *you* to resolve it for us. We all know that a faulty item will turn up now and then. This is not our major complaint – though receiving three faulty units in a row is one of our major concerns as well.

Our major concern now is the after-sale service, which for the Z9 is promoted that it will be top class, with which we are astonished. Almost three months later, three Z9 units later, with a lot of wasted time and extra expense to us, we are still no closer to a satisfactory resolution on our problem. The situation is now well beyond “just return the Z9” and giving us our money back.

The forums where we have asked about Z9 were:

hometheaterforum.com
avsforum.com
audioholics.com/forums
forums.audioreview.com
soundandvisionmag.com


In America, (edit) bob president of bob (Edit) wrote to my son the following:


I spoke in person to a top exec at Yamaha today on your behalf and also pointed him to your thread on my forums. Let’s see what happens. . . .



Best Regards;

bob
HAA Level 1 Certified
President of bob.com



Another respondent from Australia mentioned that we should approach Dept. of Fair Trading regarding numerous issues. We do *not* yet want to go this way, at least not until after we alerted both you and Yamaha, and gave you all one more decent opportunity to get this really right.

Here is a further sample of the dozens of replies Karl received just in a day and a half:

“Thanks for the alert about this model. With your info, many members will stay away from this model until Yamaha gets its act together.”

“Hey, when you put that kind of cash down for a product( actually for any product they sell), Yamaha should find a way to make you happy! . . . “

“Well that sounds awful. I would flip out, and most likely would take it back and not buy another Yamaha product. I take offence to that type of service. . . .”

“spending the kind of monies that ppl spend on a car, and getting $hit like this is simply unacceptable . . .”

“I would not only email the head Yammy guy in Australia your message I'd include all link to all of your threads in all of the forums you've posted this in and tell him these forums are filled with people that are interested in hi-end audio equipment and if your issue isn't resolved swiftly and properly this will reflect very bad for Yamaha in these forum and will result in lost sales and customers. . . .”

“That's terrible! They've got such a great rep too. Have you tried "asking for the manager" at customer support? I'd act (and be) furious! . . .”

“But this is kind of strange as Yamaha is known to have at least better customer service than it's competitors. . . ."

“I wouldn't give a dime to them . . .”



Please, (edit), could you urge and escalate this issue as appropriate, and for Yamaha to really come to the party. Yamaha should use this as an opportunity to show how they can meet and *now* well exceed customer’s expectations. We are just as happy to report on quality support.





Yours Sincerely,



please tell me it's ok

and any comments and/or suggestion are most welcome once again

we'll see what happens from here.

 

[Gus Donis]

Sorry to hear that. I have had my RX-Z9 since November of 2003. No problems to date. A friend of mine also owns this unit. He has not had any problems either.

 

[Wayne Ernst]

Could this just be an issue with the Australian version that Kaj ows?

 

[Kaj]

Who knows what the case is, could be just me, I'm Hallucinating about the whole thing i wish i did know though, would make life a lot easier

 

[DanaA]

Yeah, Kaj, keep us posted. Will be interesting to hear Yamaha's response. Aren't there other Z9 users hear? Anyone having the same problems?

 

[Kaj]

This is what I got back from Yamaha (it's amazing how quick and how lengthily they can reply when they want too)

But it was not what I expected back.
I’ll give an overview, I won't copy it fully as I don't know if I’m allowed to???


they said they got "our" unit back from us. They said they immediately tested it and said it worked, they even sent it to the Head office for further testing.


My first point of confusion. That unit never left the store, we, and the store even said, didn’t bother going further because it was tested there, at the store on the spot as soon as the box was opened and everyone saw the problem, very obviously I might add, there were no subjective opinions.

Yamaha in their reply said they connected the Z9 via component video it to their LPX-500 LCD projector for their first test, and then to a PDM-1 50-inch plasma for the second test. And they said they accessed the "RX-Z9 test patterns¨

Just out of interest for me, how on earth do I get at these test patterns???? I would like to do my own checking, and I didn't know you could do this; otherwise I would've done it ages ago. (I'm not being sarcastic here either )

They said the image was perfect and the test pattern showed as it should, no shimmering or skewing etc.

To this I don't know what to say except, that's all very fishy! And further more it is not testing what we have a problem with at all; in fact they are confirming the things we tried to say. I didn't and still won't go into details, (to much for me to write and handle at the moment) but the basic problem we're having is with DVDs

We want to do this very simple thing, that's all we want, when it works, I’ll crawl into my home and Yamaha will never hear from me again (unless it dies again or something):

I do not care about satellite TV, HDTV, test DVD's, test patterns, etc. for the moment, just something very plain.

I want a simple thing to work, which we've been told, does, by Yamaha, by other customers such as some of you, by even people like Denon:

(I just posted this, I know)

* 1.If I get a standard DVD player (I don't care about quality or anything for the moment, just a normal consumer $30 -$60 DVD player from say Panasonic, Sony, Teac even. No fancy features, like progressive output)

* 2. I connect that DVD player to the Z9 via the component in.

* 3. I go to the GUI on the Z9 and turn the video processing ON.

* 4. I set the Z9¡¦s video output resolution to 480p/576p (if I set it to 720p, the Yamaha will just automatically switch down anyway)

* 5. I connect my monitor to the component monitor Out on the Z9 (so it¡¦s component all the way, not the lower s-video or composite)

* 6. I put in a standard DVD (eg. Finding Nemo, Star Wars II, copyrighted as most DVD’s are)

* 7. I play that DVD

* 8. The Z9 should output the video (de-interlacing it and doing what ever it does with it’s DCDi faroudja based processing)

* 9. My monitor should get that signal and display it.

* 10. The image should be fine and watch-able, better than if I turn the Z9 video processing off,. (I don’t care if it is not as good as a Denon DVD players would do it or anything else, just that it works, no colour bleeding, artefacts, skewing etc.)

This should, but DOES NOT WORK with the Z9’s we've had. Even the very first, though very underqualified guy that came out from Yamaha to do the first "supposed to fix all" firmware update, he saw with his own eyes, as have the store and others.

We can! Actually get the Yamaha to send out a sort of decent image under certain circumstances ourselves, Eg. Kolya. It even displays at 720p or 1080i (makes sense, it's not copyrighted.) but there is still slight colour bleeding. Odd

Anyway from what I've found, there seems to be a link between the Z9 and it's ability to handle any sort of Copyrighted material, down here in Australia anyway, it may have something to do with the combination of our PAL systems and encoded DVD's along with region 4, and 576p etc and the way the Z9 is programmed, there may be a bug, who knows. (Yamaha should be figuring this out, not me) I'm not sure, but if you've more insight, please post, as I'm still at a very basic level of understanding in these parts, you may see some connections and tell me yes, the Z9 is working ok (though I doubt it).

Anyway, the response continues,

They said that even though they haven't been able to spot our problem, they have heard from YCJ, Yamaha Japan I'm guessing, that they have just been advised that "some display devices may not be able to handle the resolution output from the RX-Z9 in its entirety. We're told that some display devices which utilise 100% overscan (not all display devices do this) can sometimes show 'leaning images' at the top of the screen. I've been informed that copy-protected DVDs may cause this."

They said that they will release new firmware in "2-3 weeks which will cut the top lines to compensate for those types of displays" but they say that the Z9 is in no way faulty and that they will send out an authorized person to install it.
This sounds exactly like what the told us with the first firmware up date!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!Does this also mean that I will get a smaller picture, in which they are going to cut the tops of my DVDs image off, so that I cannot see the fault that’s there!!!!! I don’t get it, they can't do that can they?!!!!!! Or do I not understand what they mean????

They then said some stuff that was obvious and that was already known about resolutions and copyright etc. and I shan’t mention it here.

Then they go on to say that they have been constantly "trying to solve his problem" since they've been aware of it. They also say, quote: "He (me) seems to think we (Yamaha) have indifference to his (my) problem, which is of course not true. " they also said that "There has been up to five Yamaha Australia staff working on this situation. The complexity of the product and the problem - combined with our inability to replicate the problem - has meant there has been nothing further we could tell *me* about this until now. "

Firstly I'd like to say, if this is true, then I have found a small bit of comfort, though I am sceptical (I wonder why??)
I think we have been lucky to get more that 4 contacts about anything of anything that has been going on from Yamaha, let alone updates and help or explanations in the past Three months (other than, "we are sending a new unit"). This is the second email which is at least half decent that we've gotten, and it's actually got info in it, but still, it's only AFTER we contacted them (as has been always the case and after we also sent them the email I posted).

All we want to work, and all we test at the moment to see if the unit is any good is the steps 1 - 10 with the *'s next to them. That is what we test at the store, and that is what didn't and still doesn't work. And if it doesn't do that basic thing properly, we do not even bother with anything else. That is all I use the Unit, or want to anyway, for at this moment (and sound or course, but that's ok). If the Z9 doesn't do that, then Yamaha SAY SO (I now it should though, that's the problem, as does everyone else)

If I could, I would buy everyone who's interested, a plane ticket down here to aussie land, and show you the problems, and inconstancies myself. Unfortunately (for you , I cannot, so I ask you take my word for it. If only Yamaha would do that, not act and react as if we’re making it up, or don't know what we're talking about. But the thing is, they can come to my house and see for themselves (and they have), or at least come to the store, they are MOST welcome.

So what ever they are doing, I have no idea at all.

The reply in my opinion is a Bum steer and didn't help anyone and just made it all more confusing and has made us more annoyed! i didn't pay money for this!

Please post your views and/or correct me, or rebuke me

I am getting desperate! It looks like I have to wait nearly another MONTH for anything else to happen with Yamaha and there's no way of being assured that the problem will be fixed with us or the Z9!

Anyway, said I'd keep you posted

(Sigh)


Cheers

 

[Wayne Ernst]

Kaj, It appears that this might be achieved by accessing the service menu. Now, it's just a question on how to get into that area. Seems like maybe a sequence of keys would have to be pushed on the remote to do so.

I'd contact the store and ask them how they can pull up the test pattern. Certainly, it would be a great thing to have access to.

 

[Kaj]

here's the letter. i posted it at AVS i'll do so here

I think I can finally shed some light on Mr >>>>'s RX-Z9 video problems.

We received Mr >>>>'s returned RX-Z9 unit back to our service centre. They performed basic testing (which they do to all returned stock) to verify it is working, and it was. Then we arranged to have it shipped to our head office for further testing. We believe the RX-Z9 was in the same condition as it was in Mr >>>>'s home.

We connected it via component video it to our LPX-500 LCD projector for our first test, then and our PDM-1 50-inch plasma for our second test. The PDM-1 is, as you may know, based on a Matsushita (Panasonic) plasma panel. We then accessed the RX-Z9 test patterns.

Mr >>>>'s returned RX-Z9 performed perfectly normally, both on the LPX-500 and the PDM-1. There was no distortion visible across the top of the test pattern at all. No unusual shimmering was evident.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, on Wednesday (7th July), we had some communication from Yamaha Corporation Japan (YCJ) regarding Mr Jancar's Z9 video problem.

While we (Australia) have been unsuccessful in recreating any of Mr >>>>'s problems, YCJ have just advised us that some display devices may not be able to handle the resolution output from the RX-Z9 in its entirety. We're told that some display devices which utilise 100% overscan (not all display devices do this) can sometimes show 'leaning images' at the top of the screen. I've been informed that copy-protected DVDs may cause this.

YCJ says they will launch a new firmware in 2-3 weeks which will cut the top lines to compensate for those types of displays. I must stress that the RX-Z9 is in no way faulty or malfunctioning. YCJ re simply issuing a solution for display devices which use overscan. This being the case, once we have the YCJ firmware upgrade an authorised person would have to install the firmware into Mr >>>>'s RX-Z9.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(NOTE: this following part is not the case, we wern't conecerend about this at al, as i have shown on this and other forums, i don't know where they got this idea

Another concern of Mr >>>>>'s was the RX-Z9's ability to display 1080i signals.

We have conducted extensive tests with:
Standard region 1 and region 4 DVD software,
Super-bit region 1 and region 4 DVD software, and
Standard and High-definition digital TV.

After testing, we able to verify what is stated on page 79 of the RX-Z9 owner's manual: Any signal which contains a copy-protection flag, cannot be displayed at a higher resolution other than 480p (NTSC) or 576p (PAL).
(I quoted this exact phrase from the manual to the Techie a while back and he asured me that this only applied to recording the source, crazy, and that the Z9 was just a line doubler or something like that, and didn't care about copyright so on. he must have made a mistake our misundersood, but i swear that's what he told me. I knew all this was wrong already, but at least they are now confirming for us what we knew! and that they're still not sticking to the that story, but in terms of our problem, it's irrelevent and we don't care that most DVD due to copyright won't go out at 1080i, we weren't expecting them to!, that part is no fault of the Z9, i understand)

In our testing, only one DVD did not contain a copy-protection flag (a region 1 super-bit DVD) and the RX-Z9 could easily upscale this disc to 1080i without a problem. All other DVDs were copy-protected and could not be displayed at 1080i. Digital TV is not copy-protected, and could be up-scaled by the RX-Z9 and displayed at 1080i. This was all verified using the "Signal Status" section of the RX-Z9 GUI menu.
again, i did these exact same things, and knew all this long before this email, we were even showing the store this with our second unit
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please advise Mr >>>> that we have been constantly trying to solve his problem since we have been aware of it. He seems to think we have indifference to his problem, which is of course not true. There has been up to five Yamaha Australia staff working on this situation. The complexity of the product and the problem - combined with our inability to replicate the problem - has meant there has been nothing further we could tell Mr >>>>> about this until now.

 

[Kaj]

could i ask you go the the AVS forums and follow the last few posts, but especialy this one:
I still can't post internet links as i haven't posted over 15 times so you'll have to add www and copy the rest

.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4042438#post4042438

and tell me what you think?

thankyou

 

[Kaj]

two new 'developments' have come about,

first

We received Mr >>>>'s returned RX-Z9 unit back to our service centre. They performed basic testing (which they do to all returned stock) to verify it is working, and it was. Then we arranged to have it shipped to our head office for further testing. We believe the RX-Z9 was in the same condition as it was in Mr >>>>'shome.

Mr >>>>>'s returned RX-Z9 performed perfectly normally, both on the LPX-500 and the PDM-1. There was no distortion visible across the top of the test pattern at all. No unusual shimmering was evident.

Please advise Mr >>>>> that we have been constantly trying to solve his problem since we have been aware of it. He seems to think we have indifference to his problem, which is of course not true. There has been up to five Yamaha Australia staff working on this situation. The complexity of the product and the problem - combined with our inability to replicate the problem - has meant there has been nothing further we could tell Mr >>>>>> about this until now.


we just found out that the thrid unit which died, never left the store and Yamaha have not tested it or received it, and has still not left the store, and the second unit is still in our home!. could someone please explain to me which Z9 they say they tested (especially which one of OUR units they tested!!!). i cannot be the first one as they, Yamaha, said it was a dud, and that's how this whole thing got started.
this new bit of info was quite some shock to us as it means this letter is . . . . well i'll let you be the judge of that.


and secondly, we today, took DVD's and went to test another Z9 in a completely different (highly regarded) store. They there had the Z9 set up COMPLETELY with Yamaha equipment, DVD and projector.
The problem was there, and in some cases worse than we were experiancing it ourselves at home!!!!

the manager even saw the problem himself, and it took us a whole of 15min to show him our run of tests, let's hope he goes to Yamaha about this as well.


anyway, said i'd keep you posted, this post may then interest you, please give me you feedback, as i think you'll have to admit, it ain't looking good.

cheers

 

[Kaj]

I'm still waiting on the 5th Z9 that was meant to come this week, all new and fixed and upgraded. Though as we were expecting, it did not come, so hopefully next week.

I might also add, i am now not the only person in Australia that seems to have serious issues with the Z9's Video features. See the AVS forum ("Yamaha this is NOT RIGHT!!!! Z9 issues" thread) for a lengthy post from someone else who is not very happy with Yamaha and in the way this is being delt.

I suspect that possibly there is a major flaw in the Aussie models and that more and more problems will arise down here.
I now know of SIX Z9's that do not work as they should, yet Yamaha Australia say they do.

I don't know what is going on!

i'll post my results with the Z9 number 5 as soon as possible.
And i'll still be contacting Yamaha and see if i can find out what is going on.

KJ

 

[Kaj]

still no new Z9 so before we get rid of the Z9 or figure out what we will do, i thought i'd take a few photos of the problems, they are posted over at the AVS forums.

the problems you will see are not just evident with my setup, but with 4 others we have seen, including one that was completely made up of Yamaha gear. and don't forget, the photos don't do the problems justice, it is much worse when actually watching it.

link: AVS "Yamaha this is not right!! Z9 issues" thread