Will DLP fade away? (1 Viewer)

[John Doh]

I hear you guys on these plasmas, but personally am not convinced. I have seen several plasma screens and they all had horrible black level deifnition. I went to a HT specific store in Atlanta and they had showcased some plasma in a dark HT room. The dark scenes on LOR:2T left alot to be desired. Now maybe these Panny's have something that the others don't, I'm not sure, but from what I have read all over the net is that all digital TV's (Plama, DLP, LCD & LCOS) suffer from poor black level performance. In order of best to worst it was DLP, plasma, LCD . The new DLP's coming out mid-year are supposed to be the best blacks seen so far on any digital set with 5000:1 contrast ratios! Oh, and the DLP's definitely have the brightest pictures (maybe too bright in some opinions...) and can be veiwed at very wide angles horizontally, but do lack range in the vertical area. But who watches their TV 5 feet above their head???

Due to the size, weight, picture quality, flexibilty, and PRICE compared to plasma...well there is no comparison IMO. Sure there are pros and cons to each set, but the titel of this thread was "Will DLP's Fade Away...?" and that is definitely a resounding NO. I believe this technology will continue to evolve even after plasma reaches it's maximum potential, especially with a company like TI backing it.

 

[Kevin*Ha]

LCD better black levels than newer plasmas? Hmm, when I was shopping around I honestly didn't see that at all, as a matter of fact I would put LCD almost behind DLP in terms of black level. Detail is another story for sure. I don't think any of them are going away any time soon.

 

[Rich H]

That's right. If you don't believe AV buffoons like me, listen to reviewers :

(BTW, the reason I post this stuff is that there is tons of information about DLP/LCD on AV forums, but lot's of misconceptions about the state of plasma displays and just how good they can be...so I try add my experience and additional info to balance things out). Anyway, about those black levels:

From The Perfect Vision (whose writers until recently ignored plasma):

"Panasonic has developed plasma technology that boasts astoundingly high contrast ratios-and these increases are not a result of increased light output, but of improved black levels. Details that were submerged in the darker areas of the image by earlier plasmas with their elevated black levels, now, on the Panasonic PT-42PHD4-P, jump out of the blacks like a dancer out of a cake. As a result, images have much greater depth and are much closer to CRT quality."

Panasonic ED Plasma Review from Home Cinema :
"Wow. Panasonic's new image processing is nothing short of revolutionary, enabling the 42PW4 to deliver far and away the most cinematic images I've seen on a plasma screen. The contrast range is sensational, rendering black levels so true and devoid of noise that they really do rival the best CRT TVs." And..."overall the Panasonic 42PW4 is simply in a class of its own."

From respected reviewer, AV consultant Peter H. Putman in his plasma round-up:

"Top honors for contrast performance with an optimum grayscale went to Panasonic's TH-37PWD4 (not surprising, given Panasonic's showing the past two years). It turned in an average reading of 608:1 and a peak reading of 779:1 which was bettered only by the Fujitsu PDS-5003 at 799:1 peak. Both monitors use glass from Matsushita as well as the Plasmaco-designed low drive system to produce better black levels, which measured on average .2 to .3 nits for both models."

From Sound And Vision's recent Panasonic ED Plasma Review: "Picture contrast, color, and detail were all astonishingly good." And.."Skipping to the XXX balcony sequence—my new black-level torture test for plasma TVs—I was impressed by shadow details in this murky scene. Not only could I make out highlights in Yelena's dark-brown hair, but the nighttime sky surrounding it was a deep shade of black—something most plasma TVs have trouble achieving with dim images. Panasonic gets an enthusiastic thumbs up for delivering impressive detail with dark images." And..."With its PT-42PD3-P, Panasonic has created a stunning set that's likely to wipe out any misgivings hard-core video enthusiasts have about plasma displays."

Cheers,

 

[John Doh]

Kevin Ha,

I don't think I put that LCD black levels were better than plasma, which in fact they aren't IMO.

Rich H,

Just out of curiosity, what do these Panny plasma cost? My experience with plasma pricetags are mostly from retail outlets but I cannot recall the Panny prices. Also, the new DLP's (HLP lineup) aren't even out yet so nobody has them. They came out with a revision of the current line of DLPs and marked them a -1 or something, but they do not contain the latest chipsets. They will introduce 3 new chips in 2004 of which 2 of the three are going to raise the bar for black levels and detail shown there-in. The HD3 chipset is going to be little to no better than what is currently out there because it is labeled the "affordable TV chip". However, the HD2+ chipset is going to double the currnet contrast ratio (Samsung says 3000:1, a few places on the net say 2500:1) and the xHD3 is going to boast a 5000:1 contrast ration. These sets won't start appearing until May-June and I will definitely have mine!

We are both definite fans of our opinions on each technology and that is ok. Each person makes purchases to fit their needs and it is just a beautiful thing to have options! Later fellas!

 

[Rich H]

John,

The Panny ED plasmas can be found easily for under $3,000 from reputable on-line retailers (it seems most people over on the AVS plasma forum are ordering that way).

I'm aware of the upcoming DLP chipsets and look forward to seeing them in action. (I've been demoing DLP/LCD projectors with a pal recently too).

I've seen people who own CRT or plasmas who are really down on DLP or LCD, but I REALLY like both technologies. I saw an HD loop on a DLP RPTV last week that was astonishingly clear and vivid.

 

[John Doh]

Rich,

You mentioned the "ED" Panny's, but those aren't HDTV's are they? I saw a Samsung ED plasma one day and it was around the $3K range too. That is an aweful lot to pay for being non-HD. What does an HDTV Panny cost Rich?

 

[Kevin*Ha]

John - sorry about my earlier mistake, I misread what you wrote.

The HD Panny (same model number as the ED but with an H instead of a W for the commercial version) is ~$4k online give or take $200. The consumer versions of both are $700-$900 more. Those have a slightly different bezel, a stand, speakers, and a few different features, but the same PQ.

When I bought my ED I considered the HD quite a bit. Actually when I first started researching them I was firmly against the ED because I thought it would be silly to by a $3k display and not get true HD. That said after sitting down with both of them for many hours I decided the ED was definitely a better fit for me. DVD's and SD look quite a bit better in my opinion, and when viewing an HD feed the difference is minimal at best. The ED looks *almost* as good as the HD, so for $1,200 less I decided to go with the ED. Unless your viewing habits were 60%+ HD viewing or you sit less than 6 feet from the display I would recommend the ED over the HD to just about anyone. Of course you should always see them first!

 

[Rich H]

Kevin answered some of the questions, but just to add my viewpoint on the worth of ED plasmas.

As you are likely aware, resolution isn't the whole ballgame as far as picture quality. Good contrast (which typically means including good black levels) has a major impact on perceived richness, sharpness and dimensionality of the image. (In fact, apparently some studies on how people rate image quality put contrast at the head of the line, followed by sharpness, good color etc.).

I've seen my reference DVDs on more displays than I can remember now, including most of the DLPs/LCDs and Plasmas.
I've found that for ME, good black level performance is very important to my perception of the picture quality, and enjoyment of the image overall.

For instance, on some Hi-Def displays, such as the Samsung DLPs, Sony GW LCD RPTV, or even some HD plasmas, the picture can look stunning with bright scenes, and when the surrounding lights are on (typical store viewing scenario).
But when I lower the lights to were I like to watch movies, those Hi-Def displays suddenly look washed out, flat and less sharp, especially if I have to watch a DVD containing many dark locations. Whereas the Panasonic ED model, which maintains a deeper look to the blacks without washing out, looks even *better* as the lights go down. It gets sharper, more detailed and more dimensional looking, remaining gorgeous under any viewing conditions.

So, why the ED model? Because it's affordable for plasma, and because it's combination of picture strengths - amazing sharpness, color AND rich black levels - are almost impossible to find anywhere else
in a digital display. If I bought an HD DLP RPTV, I'd have more resolution, but everytime I'd watch movies and the black levels looked washed out, I'd feel that pinch of dissatisfaction. With the Panny ED I get closer to CRT tube set performance than almost any other digital display, but in a bigger size than any tube set.


And that's not the only reason...the Panny ED model also tends to have the smoothest, least artifact-ridden scaling
of most any plasma or digital display I've seen, including the Panny HD models. And it looks the best with regular cable/satellite channels as well, which still comprise the bulk of my family's viewing time.

Hope that explains why some of us choose the ED model.

 

[John Doh]

Thanks for the comments guys. I do see where the ED could better fit the needs of some and I feel a bit enlightened. Cheers to options!