The Matrix Revolutions (2003) (1 Viewer)

[Chuck Anstey]

I have a question for those of you who think Revoutions was a worthy ending of the Matrix trilogy and in line style / intelligence / plotwise with the first two. What specific scenes did you find the philosophy and intelligence of the first two? The only scene I remember is the two "programs" with their daughter and that scene never went anywhere after that. I do not care that you liked it and I am not trying to "prove you wrong". I just want some perspective and insights if you are willing to share. I was hugely disappointed after getting really excited with Reloaded.

I have come up with an analogy of my perspective on Revolutions so I will see if I can articulate it sufficiently well. Take the movie "Midway". It was about the turning point of the war in the Pacific between the Japanese and US. To me, the Revolutions "version" of Midway would be:
1st hour: 45 minutes spent on the soldiers on Midway discussing general day to day issues and preparing for invasion. 15 minutes spent on the code breakers and Admiralty deciding to fight the Japanese fleet with whatever carriers they had.
2nd hour: Entire time spent on the Japanese attack on Midway and the soldiers trying to defend the island.
Last 12 minutes: Planes spot Japanese fleet, US attacks and destroys the 4 carriers while losing 1(?).

While such a version is technically accurate, it is completely misleading about the battle. The key to the battle was the US fleet figuring out Midway was the real target, hiding, and trying to find and destroy the Japanese fleet first. Plus a hell of a lot of luck. The soldiers on Midway would have been completely run over had the Japanese fleet not been destroyed by the US fleet so why focus on them as they were irrelevant to the battle had the US fleet failed.

This to me is why Revolutions is a huge disappointment. We have been told continuously in the first two movies that Zion cannot defeat the machines in the real world so we know that they must be defeated in the Matrix. Why spend most of the movie on a group of people and a battle that is effectively irrelevant to the story. I consider all of it just filler and poor story telling given that we "know" and it proves true in the end that Zion was saved by a battle inside the Matrix.

Chuck Anstey

 

[Chris Atkins]

Chuck Anstey:

I had always thought that the power of the One would allow more minds to be freed, thus giving the humans a fighting chance in the real world against the machines.

Guess I was wrong.

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

Hi Chuck,

I can certainly agree with your sentiments but, then again, I also thought it would have been better to never show Zion - keep it a pseudo-mythic place rather than root it in the in-frame reality.

Although the battle can be seen as filler, it does payoff some of the subplots and characters, such as the Morpheus, Niobe, Locke triangle, and adds tension to Neo's quest, showing the hopelessness of the human defenses and the ever-increasing stakes of his journey.

 

[EricW]

I just want some perspective and insights if you are willing to share. I was hugely disappointed after getting really excited with Reloaded.

i was also let down by Revolutions after loving Reloaded. i think they emphasized the Zion struggle too much and should have spent more time on the whole abstract struggle of a virus (Smith) possibly wrecking it for both sides while at the same time machines starting to love (be more human) which is hardly touched on at all.

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

I'm not sure Revolutions shows machines starting to love but rather humans perceiving for the first time that machines are capable of the same emotional connections that humans are. Ofcourse, this was really first touched in Reloaded with the Merovingian and Persephone but fleshed out more in the train station scene of Revolutions.

 

[Jonathan L]

Just to chime in on the discussion of the Agents, I've always regarded them (as a few others have mentioned/alluded to) as "rent-a-cops" for the system of the Matrix. Their sole purpose actually has very little to do with unplugged humans in any direct sense. They exist to ensure the continuing, proper functioning of the Matrix by eliminating anything *in-system* that would negatively influence the illusion for those still plugged in. That is their purpose, and they have no reason or *ability* to act different. This is how Smith is different (remember in the first film the other two agents were more than content with simply killing Morpheus, while Smith was the one obsessed with getting the Zion codes from him). Smith has thoughts, desires, etc. that go well beyond the typical Agent program.

The rest of this adds to the Agent discussion and ties in with some of Chuck Antsey's questions. First, the machines obviously know and have always known where Zion was. Also, the Architect very clearly states that the inevitable attack on Zion is triggered by the number of unplugged humans; with regard to those who reject the Matrix, he says that (paraphrasing) "while a minority, if left unchecked, would constitute a growing probability of failure." The Agents don't know any of this, and couldn't care less. Everything dealing with the mathematical/system problems resulting from humans rejecting the system is beyond the scope of their job and knowledge. It's not their problem or function. They don't, for example, go after the Keymaker to prevent Neo from reaching the Source, they're after him because (as far as they are concerned) he is simply a leftover, useless exile program that's not supposed to be there.

I had no problems with the length of the Zion battle (which includes the Hammer's run). The thing that one needs to keep in mind is first, the humans, with the exception of Morpheus (which is an entirely different issue deal with the faith/spiritual messages in the movie), don't know that they can't win. Additionally, the military commander doesn't believe in Neo and couldn't care less about "prophecies and oracles".

The sequence serves two purposes...on one hand, it effectively shows that the humans are ultimately helpless against the machines, but at the same time it shows that something is different this time, by virtue of the Hammer making it back, which is only possible because of the faith in Neo of Kid and Link, and Zee's love for Link. If there was no Neo charging off to the Machine City, there'd be no Kid to open the gate, and no Zee to bail Kid out, since without Neo, Link would never have been on the Hammer in the first place, so Zee wouldn't have volunteered to hold the Dock.

There's is SOOOO much material here it's impossible to cover every single point, but those, at least for me, are the most important and meaningful ones.

 

[Rives Elmore]

I am glad you were able to collect your thoughts that well and post them. I had the exact same points in mind, but you were able to put them on "paper",so to speak, quicker than I could

 

[Chuck Anstey]

The sequence serves two purposes...on one hand, it effectively shows that the humans are ultimately helpless against the machines, but at the same time it shows that something is different this time, by virtue of the Hammer making it back, which is only possible because of the faith in Neo of Kid and Link, and Zee's love for Link. If there was no Neo charging off to the Machine City, there'd be no Kid to open the gate, and no Zee to bail Kid out, since without Neo, Link would never have been on the Hammer in the first place, so Zee wouldn't have volunteered to hold the Dock.

The first point (humans are helpless even if they do not know it) makes sense but does not sway my opinion. I do not care if the characters in Zion believe they can win, I (the audience) know they cannot win already so why spend an hour on screen proving what the movies have spent the last 5 hours predicting and stating.

On the second point: What evidence do you have that the Hammer making it back matters? All it did was delay the inevitable by an hour or two. It was very clear at the end of Reloaded that when the machines decided it was time for Zion to be destroyed, Zion would be destroyed and could not be stopped in the real world. No events in Zion would make any difference. Even if Zion were destroyed before Neo stopped Smith, humanity would still have been saved.

One last point, since Revolutions is not actual history, the brothers W could written the fate of Morpheous and crew any way the wanted. I would have been much more satisfied if they all went into the Matrix the help Neo get to the final showdown with Smith and "died" along the way. They could have been resurrected when Smith was destroyed just as the machines were, or not. To make Zion matter maybe Neo and crew could have been in Zion and needed to get past the Sentinels to get to where they could jack into the Matrix.

On the movie mulligan list, this one my number one movie.

Chuck Anstey

 

[Chris Atkins]

Chuck Antsey:

I'm not sure you'll get a mulligan on REVOLUTIONS, but it WOULD be interesting to see a prequel made about the first "one" and how the original resistance was started, how the Architect came to know how to "balance" out his equation, etc.

 

[David Rogers]

I think I had a post in this thread back before it died that talked about "expectations". It seems to me, *still*, that folks who didn't like the trilogy or its ending are caught up in their expectations for the film.

I repeat, isn't it more fun to show up at the movies (at *any* movie, not just Matrix) ready to have fun and experience something, rather than to show up with an adjenda of what 'should' happen?

Different strokes I suppose. Have fun.

 

[Chris Atkins]

I agree with your point 100%, David, and it applies to a whole lot of movies other than the Matrix ones.

 

[Lou Sytsma]

It seems to me, *still*, that folks who didn't like the trilogy or its ending are caught up in their expectations for the film.

To someone who is disappointed with the sequels there is undeniably such an element.

The biggest issue I have with the films is how narratively impaired they are. Films are a visual medium. The constant, "Sit down Neo, it is time for a lecture." approach taken kills the momentum. These sequences should have been shown to us as much as possible with far less telling. Understandably the concepts discussed are not the easiest to illustrate and that is where good writing comes into play. Look at how much more effective the training sequences and the view from hell work in the original movie.

I have other issues but that is probably the biggest one.

 

[Chuck Anstey]

I think I had a post in this thread back before it died that talked about "expectations". It seems to me, *still*, that folks who didn't like the trilogy or its ending are caught up in their expectations for the film.

I agree with that and it applies to me. What I expected was an action movie with a real intelligent plot where the previous movies still make sense in the context of the last. What we got (IMO) is a brainless, thinly plotted action movie of the Armageddon caliber completely unworthy of the first two. There were lots of great suggestions / speculation by HTF members after Reloaded came out. Many of those would have been a great plot for the finale and far better that what Revolutions delivered.

My question a few days ago was to those who thought Revolutions was a worthy finale. What scenes / plot points do you believe keep it at the same level as the first two?

Chuck Anstey

 

[Chuck Anstey]

I'm not sure you'll get a mulligan on REVOLUTIONS, but it WOULD be interesting to see a prequel made about the first "one" and how the original resistance was started, how the Architect came to know how to "balance" out his equation, etc.

I would have to go back a listen to the Architect's speech again but I thought he knew from the beginning that Neo (the anomally) would be created. It was known that system was inherently unstable and needed to be controlled.

I write software for a living and have a system that will eventually crash if it runs long enough. We know it will happen but preventing that issue is beyond our control (damn 3rd party libraries). Our solution is to monitor the situation and reset the system in a controlled manner before that happens, same as the Matrix.

Chuck Anstey

 

[Chris Atkins]

Yeah, but someone had to be the first one to wake up...imagine the shock! Heck, I'm just trying to figure out how the resistance could have started in the first place...

 

[joDOR]

My question a few days ago was to those who thought Revolutions was a worthy finale. What scenes / plot points do you believe keep it at the same level as the first two?

every scene and each plot point. seriously.

 

[JonathonSan]

A bit OT, well not really, but it has to do with the original Matrix. I was remembering just how blown away I was by it in the theater and I was trying to remember why exactly, because it now differs a bit. I don't read about this very much when people speak of their love or disdain for the Matrix and I find it a bit odd. I think as working stiffs we can all, or at least most of us, identify with Thomas Anderson. He is at odds with the world as he knows it...he feels there is more, that there is something out there but he can't quite place it. I think it is a common feeling many of us have and there is a feeling that there is something more out there for us if we could just get to it. In this case Thomas Anderson, lives out one of our, or at least my fantasies, to transcend the world that we know and become something more. This is about power, or at least the power to escape the binds that tie us to a world we may not be completely accepting or happy with at some primal level. Just as the Architect said that at some level, whether conscious or not, a small percentage cannot accept the program, it is the feeling that there is something wrong that drives these people from the Matrix to Zion. While it is an obvious stream of logic running through the Matrix trilogy, I think the second and third installments, while both exceedingly excellent in my opinion, have lost the wonderment of being awakened into a new world and realizing the world that Neo and the others in the resistance left behind is not real, and for Neo it was a good thing. The “splinter” in his mind is no longer there. What am I saying? Reloaded and Revolutions couldn’t have the same feeling of wonderment and birth that Matrix had and because of this they feel a bit more cold, less personal. They take a situation that resonated to the core of the viewer, waking from a world in which we are not happy with or accepting completely, and make the situation more perilous but no less stressful and confusing. At the end of Matrix, we think Neo knows it all, we think he has escaped his prison and is now at peace with himself and the world, only to find out it is more lies and deceit. The sequels drift from the personal journey we all took with Thomas Anderson and threw it into a new realm where we could no longer feel for him. Don’t get me wrong, I am a staunch defender of the sequels as masterpieces in modern Sci-Fi cinema, but it seems from all the criticizing of the sequels and the over-analysis of the original that I forgot, as many may have also, what made the first movie so special at least to me. It wasn’t the slick style, or the groundbreaking special effects…it wasn’t the depth of the philosophy or the hidden meanings, it was the resonance it had with my life…the feeling of being unsure of things as they are or were, a feeling that something is not quite right.

Jonathon

 

[joDOR]

Reloaded and Revolutions couldn’t have the same feeling of wonderment and birth that Matrix had and because of this they feel a bit more cold, less personal. They take a situation that resonated to the core of the viewer, waking from a world in which we are not happy with or accepting completely, and make the situation more perilous but no less stressful and confusing.

i hear what you're saying, jonathon. but i think the progression away from the initial empowering sense of being freed is part of the narrative progression of the films. the point of the films (or at least one of the many points) is that freedom comes at a cost, as does power. and that the cost may not always be obviously less than the cost of the dreary prison we've escaped. for cypher, at least, it wasn't.

i mean, the same is true of many stories like this: with great power comes great responsibility; how boring and empty would the spiderman story have been had peter parker just spent all his time pursuing the presumably narcotic joy of using his superhuman abilities simply to swing around all day and climb buildings and lift really heavy stuff?

in the same way, it would just not have been possible to tell the wachowski's tale in a way that preserved the experience of the hero's initial awakening to his liberating destiny as it was felt in the first installment.

it is ultimately, i think, a philosophico-religious promise that is explored by the films: real freedom is something that takes a lot of work and is at any rate not to be found here, in this life. not really.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

it is ultimately, i think, a philosophico-religious promise that is explored by the films: real freedom is something that takes a lot of work and is at any rate not to be found here, in this life. not really.

I agree with john. The sequels could never continue that feeling the first film engenders. For thast reason I felt MORE strongly for Neo in the sequels, because his challenge was to BE the savior. And everything that entailed. No destiny (that is real). Just an opportunity to earn salvation. That made the journey more real than the fictitious victory promised in the first film.

It's a great point,
Chuck

 

[joDOR]

The sequels could never continue that feeling the first film engenders. For thast reason I felt MORE strongly for Neo in the sequels, because his challenge was to BE the savior. And everything that entailed. No destiny (that is real). Just an opportunity to earn salvation. That made the journey more real than the fictitious victory promised in the first film.

ditto for me, chuck.

as usual, perfectly put.