The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies (2014) (1 Viewer)

[Tommy R]

Question for the experts. Finished The Two Towers.


Faramir At the end tells his soldiers to take Frodo and the ring to Gondor. Some action stuff happens including arrival of a flying black rider and suddenly he has a change of heart and accepts what Frodo is doing is right. What made Faramir change his mind in the movie in such a short time?

I'm no expert and have not read the books, but I've always heard that in the book Faramir is very nice and gracious to Frodo and Sam and doesn't abduct them. I've heard book fans complain of this discrepancy in the movie, saying how he wasn't influenced by the ring in the book. My interpretation to this is that "Movie" Faramir isn't being influenced by the ring either, but rather is desperately trying to make his father happy with him. As for his change of mind, I figured he just saw more and more the evil the ring was doing to Frodo and sympathized, plus the futility of trying to use the ring for Gondor.


All just the way I have looked at it, being a non-book reader without adaptation baggage.

 

[Chuck Anstey]

Faramir in the book didn't have the change of heart because "But fear no more! I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo."


This is one of many changes done by Peter Jackson in The Two Towers and in The Return of the King that really bother me. In the books J.R.R Tolkien believes in the nobility of man and all the main leaders are willing to fight because it is the right thing to do even though they expect to not win. Peter Jackson flipped that around that all men (and most everyone else) are cowards and avoid doing the right thing by hiding and hoping the problem passes by. Only Sam and Frodo seem to be untouched by this change.

 

[SamT]

As for his change of mind, I figured he just saw more and more the evil the ring was doing to Frodo and sympathized, plus the futility of trying to use the ring for Gondor.

I interpret that the other way. Since Faramir sees the black rider and how evil the enemy is, it would be more reason for him to keep the ring because he would think that they have no chance and the only way to win is using the ring. It just didn't work for me. In a very short time of few minutes he changes a major decision.

 

[SamT]

Peter Jackson flipped that around that all men (and most everyone else) are cowards and avoid doing the right thing by hiding and hoping the problem passes by. Only Sam and Frodo seem to be untouched by this change.

And in the end even Frodo is no immune. Frodo did not destroy the ring. I'm going to see how I feel in re-watching the trilogy but that has always bothered me to no end. All this work and sacrifice and he couldn't destroy it. It's like nothing mattered and it was all done by God or a superior power. The message that all was set in advance or things were meant to be and no free will bothers me.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

I recall a comment by Jackson that he did not feel he could build the One Ring up and then have a new character, related to Boromir no less, casually dismiss it. So to continue demonstrating the power of the One Ring, he altered Faramir's (Far-fromthebook-amir...remember that?) initial response to be consistent with the power it had over Boromir and possibly Galadriel, but totally not Aragorn.


Yeah, I didn't like that either.

 

[SamT]

The first time I'm examining the story closely. I'm into the Return of the King, things get even more complicated.


A black rider sees the ring at the end of TTT, so they know exactly where Frodo and the ring is (Gondor). Yet in ROTK Pippin touches that black magic ball and Gandalf is worried if he said anything about Frodo and the ring to Sauron.


The funny thing is to protect Pippin because they say Sauron thinks he has the ring, they send him to Gondor exactly where Sauron thinks the ring is.

 

[Chuck Anstey]

And in the end even Frodo is no immune. Frodo did not destroy the ring. I'm going to see how I feel in re-watching the trilogy but that has always bothered me to no end. All this work and sacrifice and he couldn't destroy it. It's like nothing mattered and it was all done by God or a superior power. The message that all was set in advance or things were meant to be and no free will bothers me.

That is the same in the book. No one is immune to the ring forever except for possibly Tom Bombadil. It is the heart of every other character Peter Jackson changed when not under the influence of the ring. They were noble when shown the light in the book but cowards or 'not my problem' in the movies. Pointless, stupid changes that diminish everyone's efforts to free Middle Earth from the evil influence of Sauron.


As far as the no free will, i don't see it that way. It is more of the absolute power corrupts absolutely and the ring is absolute power. Plus the ring's demise was at the hands of its corrupting influence on Gollum and the mercy of Bilbo, a free will choice, allowed that to happen.

 

[SamT]

Is it explained when and why Saruman goes into the "darkside"? Because in Hobbit 3 he actively fights them. Must be after it.

 

[Ejanss]

Is it explained when and why Saruman goes into the "darkside"? Because in Hobbit 3 he actively fights them. Must be after it.

He isn't IN the Hobbit book--none of the "Ring of the Necromancer" stuff is until literally the last page or two--but Jackson's Fellowship pretty well captures Saruman's first mention in LOTR, when he decides, as Bored of the Rings put it, "Better Sorhed than no head".

 

[SamT]

So Saruman never fights the 9 in any book?

 

[Stephen Brooks]

I've always wondered.....what would happen to Smaug if he had eaten Bilbo in one bite and, in doing so, SWALLOWED the One Ring?

 

[Sean Bryan]

I interpret that the other way. Since Faramir sees the black rider and how evil the enemy is, it would be more reason for him to keep the ring because he would think that they have no chance and the only way to win is using the ring. It just didn't work for me. In a very short time of few minutes he changes a major decision.

I took it as Farmir seeing how this honorable person was just about to give himself over to the Nazgul because of the power the Ring had over him.

Seeing that, I think he realized how much of a disaster the Ring in the hands of his father would be.

 

[Sean Bryan]

And in the end even Frodo is no immune. Frodo did not destroy the ring. I'm going to see how I feel in re-watching the trilogy but that has always bothered me to no end. All this work and sacrifice and he couldn't destroy it. It's like nothing mattered and it was all done by God or a superior power. The message that all was set in advance or things were meant to be and no free will bothers me.

I always absolutely LOVED that, both in reading the book for the first time and in the film.

No matter what anyone did, no matter how good or pure of heart, NO ONE would ever be able to throw the Ring into the fires of Mount Doom. And we, as the audience/readers, finally have that realization at this climactic moment. It blew me away when I first read it and I think is was a fantastic culmination of Frodo's journey. I can think of very few, if any, other climactic moments in fictional stories I've experienced in my life that match the emotional punch of that moment.

Tolkien had lots of aspects in his story that suggested a Divine influence had a hand with moving certain pieces around the board. Actions and choices still seem to be on the individuals, but fate helped certain people be where they were needed.

Remember what Gandalf said to Pippin in Minas Tirith when they saw the signal from Minas Morgul indicating that Sauron's forces were beginning their advance?

The board is set. The pieces are moving.

Even though Frodo couldn't throw the Ring into the fires and claimed it for himself, he is the one that got it all that way. That is HUGE. Very few souls (maybe a few others like Sam), could have done what Frodo and Sam did. The Ring would have taken most well before they got anywhere near Mordor.

But fate brought Gollum there to take the Ring from Frodo at the moment it claimed him (or he claimed it). Bilbo spared Gollum all those years ago, Frodo spared Gollum and took him as a guide, all of the actions of and betrayal by Gollum lead to Frodo and Sam ultimately making it to Mount Doom, and Gollum's need for the Ring ultimately saved Frodo and lead to the Ring's destruction.

This was somewhat hinted at in The Fellowship of the Ring...

Frodo:

It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill him when he had the chance.

Gandalf:

Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Could you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.

My heart tells me that a Gollum has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before this is over.

Gandalf is recognizing that "fate" seems to be at play with Frodo and the Ring and Gollum.

 

[Sean Bryan]

So Saruman never fights the 9 in any book?

"The White Counsel" at Rivendell in 'An Unexpected Journey', Gandalf's investigation into the Necromancer in 'Desolation of Smaug', and the Council driving the Necromancer/Sauron from Dul Gordor happened "off screen", so to speak. They are not written into the narrative of 'The Hobbit'. At the end of the book, Gandalf does allude to where he went off to, and that they dealt with the Necromancer. Tolkien gave further information on what occurred here in the appendices of The Lord of the Rings (and possibly other writings).

So Jackson expanded on that and brought it into the narrative of the main story. It was cool and all, but it took more of the focus of the narrative away from Bilbo, which is the biggest weakness of the Hobbit films.

 

[Sean Bryan]

Is it explained when and why Saruman goes into the "darkside"? Because in Hobbit 3 he actively fights them. Must be after it.

Basically Saruman sees the power of the Dark Lord, even without the Ring, and concludes that its folly to resist him. Of course, he also develops his own desire to acquire the Ring for himself and become the ultimate power when he leans that it is in play.

 

[Malcolm R]

Reports are that the extended editions of all three "Hobbit" films will be in theaters in October. Likely not to be a marathon, but shown on different nights via Fathom Events. The films will also feature introductions by Peter Jackson.

http://www.slashfilm.com/the-hobbit-trilogy-extended-edition/

The extended edition of "Five Armies" reportedly adds 30 minutes. I believe the first two films added 13 minutes (Journey) and 25 minutes (Smaug).

The betting starts now for how many minutes until the first snarky comment along the lines of, "they're too long already."

 

[Chris Will]

They're not to long for me, I love these movies. Not as much as LOTR but I really enjoyed all the Hobbit movies. Can't wait to see the new scenes in BOTFA.

 

[SamT]

Five Armies was the worst of all the prequels! Hopefully the Extended Edition can make it better.

 

[Brandon Conway]

EE of BotFA officially rated R

http://www.filmratings.com/search.html?filmTitle=hobbit&x=0&y=0

 

[DavidJ]

Interesting.