Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith (2005) (1 Viewer)

[Patrick Sun]

Hey Ron, no need for spoiler blocks in the discussion thread (only need them in the review thread).

I think Darth Plagious discovered the secret of immortality:

or at least in looking younger: BOTOX!!!

 

[SteveJKo]

Love all the excellent points of view everyone is expressing! For those of you who didn't care for it, I must say I can see your points. But for me, the strong points were SO STRONG, that I found myself easily forgiving the films weaker aspects. I was just sucked in! Most importantly, for the first time at a movie in quite some time, I was totally ENTERTAINED. I was absolutely enthralled and did not want it to ever end. I really became a kid again (I'll be 46 the end of this month)something a movie hasn't done to me in a long time.

Unfortunately I too had presentation issues. The commercial for diet coke sounded like an add for Superdooper Colasound 9000, and the trailers for War Of The World and Batman Begins rocked as well. So why did the feature presentation sound like the speaker on the 13 inch black and white no name brand TV I had at UMass back in '79? I think I heard the surrounds fire twice in 140 minutes, that's for the feature, during the Superdooper Colasound 9000 Coke commercial they were "wooshing" special sound effects all the time. I'll be going to see it at a DLP theater early next week, so we'll see if the sound is better there. Hopefully the image will be, the video to film image I find rather soft, as for things like black levels..... forget it. Oh George, why couldn't you have finished your epic series in Super Panavision 70 then gone digital for your next project?

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

I just woke up, feel better.

William,
Anakin didn't now he was duped, when he said "What have I done!?" it was simply because he realized that he just killed one of his masters.

Thinking about Vader more, he has got to be one of the most tortured and conflicted charactors in the history of cinema! His entire life has been a conflict in some form or another...in the prequel trilogy he was conflicted as to which side was truly the righteous and which was the dark...he made the wrong decision. Then in the original trilogy he was conflicted because he found out about his son and began to reconsider the situation that eventually led to Anakin's return.

I also don't get why some had a problem with Vader's first word's post-cybornetics in 'Ep III', sure he just became the persona that we are used to seeing as being pure evil and remorseless, but he just became that. Anakin's attitude and sensabilities are still there, they haven't yet been driven away by years of incarceration in his new body and years of personal punishment over his killing Padme.

That man must have been going through hell in his own psyche, even if you consider the possibility when he awoke on that table, that he may have even realized then that he really screwed up, what was he going to to do about it then? He was stuck where he was now, no going back. Obviously he stil felt something, the first mechanical words from his face were asking of Padme's well being and when he was told, rather coldly by Palpatine, that he killed her, that, my friends, is what did it, that's what sent him straight down the tubes to becoming what we see choking Captn Antillis in 'EP IV'.

So my point with all that is, that dialogue wasn't merely necessary, but actually CRUCIAL to getting into the start of Vader's personal torment that led to him becoming truly evil.

 

[MarkHastings]

I don't think I would have minded it as much if it happened before he killed Mace, but after he accepted the Dark Side, he just had such an Evil presence about him that going back to his "Gee Whiz" stuff (like in Ep. II) that it seemed goofy to me.

Although, it probably does make sense...I'm just looking at the iconic "Darth Vader" from the original point of a 7 year old kid who thought he was the creepiest (and most evil) thing ever. To have him act like "Anakin", was offsetting (especially with the J.E.J. voice).

 

[DanR]

I don't think there can be any doubt that Sidious created Anakin...

If you only look at it from the Opera Scene conversaton then, yes, it would be debatable. But...

When Sidious finally squares off with Yoda, he says something to the effect that it really doesn't matter who wins because "my new apprentice will be more powerful than either of us". This clinches it for me. Sidious learned from his master how to manipulate the midiclorians to create the "Ultimate" force sensitive being (i.e. Anakin). By having this "Ultimate" force user as a SITH, Sidious thinks he is ensuring the SITH will rule forever and the Jedi will be wiped out.

If you take it one step further, you can even say then that Sidious' temptation of Luke in Episode VI to kill Vader and take his father's place can be seen in new light. Sidious wasnt expecting Anakin to be so damaged, so he was trying to replace him with someone "better". Luke is a "bonus" to the Emporer. Of course, Vader sees his son's love for him and that Sidious has betrayed him by trying to get Luke...Vader stops the cycle of deceit and lust for power once and for all.

Regards,
Dan

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Dan,
I doubt it, only because it's stupid, and GL was smart to cut the script down and leave the details out.

Back to the Jedi written as ass in ROTS: I do not mind logic gaps in stories. They are a part of life.

But their treatment of Anakin, besides having no real basis, is also staggeringly moronic.

1) You have the Chosen One, most gifted of all the non-Masters.

2) You don't trust him, because you don't trust the Chancellor, and he and the Chancellor are friendly.

Ok, so far.

3) So this kid gets picked to sit on the Council. You react poorly, driving the kid into the other guys confidence.

THEN YOU DECIDE this untrustworthy brilliant Jedi is the PERFECT DOUBLE AGENT Genius...who better to be a double agent than someone YOU DON'T TRUST. I accept sound in space. I accept flexible laws of physics. I accept the Force.

The more I consider the colossal ridiculousness of the logic to get to that point, the more it unravels. Given their opinion of Anakin, he would be the WORST choice for such a task.

IMO,
Chuck

 

[William Ward]

Mark,I was refering to the three jedi that confront Sideous along with Mace Windu. As for the ones leading the troops getting gunned down: You try to deflect blaster fire in a 360 degree arc from dozens of troops...

(Though the Twi-lek Jedi scene was crappy as she didnt do much of anything except throw up her hands and fall down)

Chuck: Anakin wasnt only the worst choice, he was the only choice.

 

[Chris]

Agreed. I think that scene really setup something that, seeing it a third time (yes, once a few weeks back, once last night, once today) I've pondered a lot more.. Anakin spent most of the movie pondering moral certainties.. it had to be "good" or "evil" and when there were chinks in the Jedi armor, it shook him; I felt him slip to the dark side the moment that Obi Wan told him to "spy" which Anakin said was 'not the Jedi way'.

In the sense that he viewed Jedi a faith, this was the dissolussionment; he had lost the bounds of certainty, and he spent the next forty minutes being challenged by how certain he could be.. Palpatine picked at this "good depends on your perspective" and "how can you know the whole truth of something by denying something" (paraphrased). He basically challenged the moral uncertainty Anakin was feeling.

When Anakin informed Windu, he was trying to redeem his faith, more then anything else; like someone who strays from their religion, he was hoping to find a home, a way back that would make him 'feel' connected; when Windu told him no, he couldn't go; Anakin's POV was such that he was being denied the truth by his faith; he couldn't see what was happening.. and the fallibility of the Jedi was tainted.

It was at that moment, the moment Anakin hopped into his ship to fly over, that he had turned to the dark side; long before he helped kill Windu. He made the decision at that point (and stemming from his conversation with Padme) that his faith did not offer him the certainty he sought - that it was morally awash as anything else, full of vaguaries, and if he could be certain of nothing, his desires were something he was certain of. The desire of power, of love, and possession.

When he went to the emporer and saved him, it was not a "slippery slope" or "quick turn" it was the conclusion he could make; that his faith had denied him what he believed in; it had sold him a lie of certainty when it didn't exist, that his desires would go unfulfilled. And somewhat like more, let's say, bitter lapsed persons of faith in our world, attacking that faith in a rage of his own belief of deception (to him) was his choice.

When Obi Wan turns to him and notes that only Sith deal in absolutes, he played into what Anakin was trying to find; something to confirm and console him with certainty.. Anakin had lost his faith, and he turned on every reminent that reminded him of something he now viewed as against his end goals.

I thought it was a brillaint turn in the first two hours; the scene between Anakin & Palpitine in the theater showed that it wasn't just temptation alone, it was the need on Anakin's part to believe he was part of the greater ends, and that power resided with him.

The more I think about it, the more brilliant I believe the second hour truly is.

 

[Richard Kim]

In the earlier drafts of the screenplay, Sideous mentions how he influenced the midichlorians to impregnate Shmi.

I'm glad this was cut. It would have too much like an "I am your father" like plot twist which is unnecessary.

Some random observations:

The space battle, while visually spectacular, was too short. The ROTJ battle is still the best space battle ever (and ANH is better than the ROTS one). I did find it interesting that unlike the OT, the ROTS battle featured more combat between captial ships than with snub fighters. In this respect, it foreshadows ANH, in which the Rebels state that Death Star's defense is based on a large scale assault.

Sideous' voice sound like it was digitally modified right after he kills Mace.

Anyone thought that charred Anakin crawling out of the volcanic sand looked just like Frodo crawling up Mount Doom in ROTK? Perhaps this is Lucas' homage to his pal Peter Jackson?

The Vader birth scene didn't bother me. I read a report that Lucas intentionally made the Vader suit extra stiff so that Hayden would seem awkward, making his first steps. As for his weak "No!", people are too used to seeing Vader as powerful, but this scene is supposed to show Anakin/Vader at his lowest point, as a mere shell of what he once was, losing everything he cared about. I really felt sorry for him at this point.

Can't wait to see it again!

 

[Chris]

I didn't (don't) think so.. in fact, as Sideous points out, only one had ever learned that (in the end).. I always felt as though Sideous' attempt at creation of life was Grievous; his twisted and malformed-nature as an effect of Sideous' attempts.

 

[George See]

That's a good point you've got there.

As a counterpoint how much harder would it have been to get a different Jedi in close to palpatine? Anakin already had that "in" no doubt the council weighed the pros and cons before making their choice. Of course an easier (lamer?) answer would be to say the council made a poor decision in picking anakin for the task because yet again their judgement was clouded by the dark side.

There's so many ways to look at it, I think the actions of the jedi council in the PT are going to be a source of hot debate in the star wars fan community for years.

 

[Richard Kim]

OTOH, Anakin has a strong rapport with Palpy. NONE of the other Jedi have this, and while it is indeed risky, they believe that by exploiting this relationship, they can use it to serve their purposes. I don't see any plot hole at all.

 

[Dennis Pagoulatos]

Chuck, I think that is the Jedi's primary failing: They can't see clearly (from the beginning) that Anakin, powerful as he will become, is too dangerous and too unpredictable to train because of him letting his emotions get the better of him. They believe, because of their arrogance, that no jedi would betray other jedi, or become a murderer (remember Mace's line about Dooku in AOTC to Padme?). So it is their arrogance that blinds them to what should be very clear, and that is why even Mace, though suspicious, trusts Anakin enough to give him the assignment to spy on Palpatine. At least that's my take on it...

-Dennis

 

[Lou Sytsma]

Careful Chuck you are starting to head down that slippery slope!

 

[Mike Graham]

Ah poor Lucas, if only he had of brought someone in to polish up the dialog in the script and assist in direction, the actors wouldn't seem so weak. Frankly, Sam Jackson is one of the best actors working today, and even he comes off as restrained and silly. Unfortunately, whats done is done.

On the other hand, Ian McDiarmid is perfect. He easily steals every scene he's in.

I was also disappointed that Qui Gon Jinn didn't make an appearance since he was the best thing about Episode I. Perhaps Neesom didn't feel a need to return for a cameo. Lucas should've gotten the footage during Episode I photography! Perhaps some new footage should be shot and inserted for the DVD release

I suppose Padme does seem weak when compared to the previous films, but I think its because her relationship with Anakin has made her so vulnerable - no one can find out about her marriage, let alone her pregnancy. She has no one to turn to except Anakin, whose turning to the Dark Side. Thus, she was a little shaken.

Finally, the best thing about the prequels is revealed at the end: Ewan McGregor. He has the best fights, and along with Yoda is the heart and soul of these films. He devotes 13 years of his life to train Anakin, only to realize he's failed him. His outrage and disparity at what Anakin has become are perfectly expressed by McGregor, and that performance is the main reason I want to see the film again.

And yes, the ending did feel somewhat rushed, as the scene could've used a little bit more...perhaps Qui Gon and Padme one with the Force, watching in the distance with Obi Wan?

I'm also somewhat saddened after last night. With Star Wars finished and Trek down the crapper, what other event films do we have to look forward to? Time will tell...

 

[Mark Ram]

I see it a different way as well. I see the jedi council as doing the best with the resource they have. Which is Anakin. They want him to do well, but they aren't exactly the nurturing type. It seems to me that they never really give up on him. That they want him to win their trust and at the same teach him patience. Balancing those two things with someone so volatile is the trick. Unfortunately, patience is something Anakin never learns. The final nail in the coffin for Anakin is having to make a rash decision in the Palp/Windu confrontation.

 

[George See]

War of the worlds, Narnia. King Kong, And for me at least Memoirs of a Geisha though i doubt it'd be considered an "event" film by most.

Though I do agree now that star wars and lord of the rings are done.....just hard to imagine that both are said and done when they were both first anounced it seemed like it'd be forever before they came out now they're gone.

 

[TonyD]

while this movie did have it's flaws, i think it is my second favorite of all 6.

too bad my theater, which has normally been great, the sound was pumped much too high. especially noticable in the beginning.
the bass was not rumbling but it was breaking.

too high.

 

[Richard Kim]

As for the PG-13 rating...

I thought that much of the violence was on par with the other SW films. The only thing that was over the edge was Anakin being burned alive and seeing his charred body.

 

[FredK]

So send in Aalya late one night to loosen Palps up then? As Richard said, Anakin already had Palpatines confidence, the Jedi read that relationship very well, and it almost worked - who broke Sidious' cover? Anakin. And he went straight to Mace with the news.

I surprisingly loved Palpatine's fighting style against the Jedi, that barrelroll was sharp!