Small floor standing speaker shootout... (1 Viewer)

[Craig Chase]

Richard, thanks for chiming in... no despondence here, actually, the comparison of full range speakers vs. subwoofers is somewhat akin to the car magazines tests...

Everyone LOVES the 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times, skidpad performance in G's (The 911 performed 0.91 G's in our skippad test) and slalom times... These are for bragging rights.

Then there is the living with the cars day to day... fit and finish... etc..You don't tell your buddies how easy the radio is to work, or how the suspension makes a long trip bearable...

Full range speakers VS. subwoofers are similar... You can't brag to your friend about the soundstaging or the great tweeter... but 115 dB at 25 Hz is FUN to brag about....

 

[JackRI]

Also, Keep in mind that every post in this thread probably represents 10 or more people who have read, enjoyed, and learned from your work. It's a valuable service you provide.

 

[Craig Chase]

Jack... thanks for the encouragement. Personally, this is the most enjoyable test I have yet worked on....

 

[Kevin_Breeze]

Craig, this is awesome that you are doing this but you really threw me off here.

First you gave the speakers a 75-80 rating out of a 100 which last I checked a 75-80% is like a "C" to a "C+" grade, which is not very impressive by any means. But than you go on to say these speakers were better than other very formidable $7000-$12,000 speakers you had previously auditioned and indicated they wer nearly as good or better than your reference R3's which were blowing away audiohiles in that show in Colorado. For $1000 speakers, that's phenomenal and even grading them a A+++++ wouldnt do them justice, let alone a C & C+...

Did I misunderstand something?? Very confused....

Also, I am still trying to figure out which Set is speakers A and which ones B?

 

[Craig Chase]

Kevin, I was hoping someone would ask just that question. The part of the tests I enjoy most is some interaction... When doing these type of tests, the 0-100 scale is relative for this test only. I could just as easily said that the "A" speaker was a 94, and "B" a 100 (think percentages) rather than what I used...in other words, each night, the "superior" system would get 100, with the other a lower number...

The scale is not intended to place these speakers in direct competition with those I have auditioned over the past few months...

So... it is very early in the process here, would the "winner" each night getting 100 be more logical ? If so, we can change the "score" to speaker "B" 100, speaker "A" 94....

On an aside, I was asked via PM how I can do blind tests when my son is not here... a good friend of mine (and avid music lover) is switching the speakers each night.. or not... as he sees fit... As for which is "A" and "B" each night, I don't know either... that is the fun part... after about 10 nights of listening, the "which was "A" and "B" each night will be posted. And yes, my friend thinks this is a bit much... but he is indulging me... and keeping record as to which was "A" and "B" each night.

There is a thread on AVS as to why magazines do not do blind tests...

 

[CurtisSC]

Oh man...we got to wait a whole 10 nights?

So lets see, the PGA Championships, the Olympics, and Craig's $1000 speaker setup comparo......

edit: By the way, a speaker comparison is more interesting to me than a sub comparison. Not that a sub comparo is not interesting, just that there are much more factors in a speaker.

 

[Kevin_Breeze]

Craig,

I tried really hard, but I can't quite grasp your logic, lol. From my perspective I think the speakers should ge graded in general, overall. The grade or rating indicates how they perform in general overall and the difference in their grades tells us how they perform in comparsion to each other.

My suggestion would be to give them an overall grade in two different categories (1) for their price range (2) in any price range. Since you have posted your experiences with other very expensive speakers people should have a good idea how to interpret these grades

As a bonus it would also be great to break each speaker down into specific categories like accuracy, imaging, soudstage, bass, clarity, power handling, fatigue level etc etc before giving them their overall grade. this would also allow people a quick glance (for those those "skimmer's" out there )

Please don't think I am criticizing you or trying to tell you what to do, especially since I am sure you have a lot more experience than I do with these things. I appreciate what you are doing and just trying to make some friendly suggestions....

Kevin

PS- this sucks, we have to wait 10 nights to find out which is which, lol

 

[Kevin_Breeze]

One other thing i wanted to add was i think sometimes when you close your eyes things soud differently. It would be interesting if your friend threw your Reference 3's back into the mix and see how you react. Wonder if you would still think the $1000 ones are as good....

 

[Craig Chase]

Kevin, Once I get done with this test, I will be happy to do a listening test to compare these two to the Ref 3's ... and give a reference in a direct comparison. For example... let's say the Ref 3's are clearly superior in an A/B test, and score the 100 points... Where do the other speakers come in accordingly in that type of test? ... 78? ... 92 ?

The only reason I don't try that now is that sonic memory is fairly short... hopefully that makes more sense of this...

 

[Craig Chase]

Kevin, I like your ideas on breaking down each speaker in all those areas ... What would you think of a total review summary after the ten nights, and we then all see which speaker was which each night... then such a summary would be fairly simple to do... ? I think you have a great idea here... !

 

[ChadLB]

Someone did tests using the following info for each speaker:

We'll rate on 1-5 scale the following:

* High/Mid/Low Separation
* Bass Feel
* Warmth
* Boxiness (score 0 for very boxy, 5 if not boxy at all)
* Clear, Undistorted "Esss"
* Imaging (left v right)
* Appearance (score only 0, 1 or 2)
* Overall Sound Quality

 

[Jon Lane]

Craig, I think you can count Swan in also. And yes, I did (and do) have a couple ideas...

One of which is that we'd like to propose upping the ante...if that's permissable. Our 6.1bc, while running in and out of sold-out status just about all of the time, weighs in at $899 pr. We'd be happy to submit it in early September.

The second idea I can't really talk about. I propose that you and I chat over a beer one of these days and see what we can come up with.

Interesting project, Craig, and I can't think of too many -- if any -- more articulate and savvy testers than you. We're really looking forward.

 

[Craig Chase]

Jon ... Articulate and Savvy ? My mother always said finishing the 6th grade would pay off big time...

Thanks for the kind words, The HTF sure is a nice, civil place to be.

The 6.1's look like a real contender in this price range, but I wonder what we have to do to get info on this mystery speaker ?

 

[Kevin_Breeze]

Thanks Craig.

Jon,

$899/pr?? I looked on Audioreview.com and there are 6 different Swan 6.1's:

plain old "6.1" $1749
"HT" $3975
"Super HT" $4175
"Ultra HT" $4875

Don't see anything about a 6.1 "bc" - If they have been sold out left and right, I am surprised they would not be listed and rated....

Edit: I went to your website and they 6.1BC is priced at $1979 to $2389??

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/cgi-b...ml?id=Aw3PWtjt

EDIT EDIT, DOH! I JUST REALIZED THOSE ARE PRICES FOR THE WHOLE SET - NOW I SEE THAT THEY ARE $899, SORRY MY BAD.

 

[Kevin_Breeze]

That would be awesome to include a set of those Swans. Can't wait to see the results of this one. Hopefully Jon can get you a set asap

Still can't figure out why there is no reviews of them though if they are so popular...

 

[DavidCooper]

Everyone is just kicking back and enjoying them instead of posting over and over again I guess!

I have made several posts about my Swans.....there are a few of us on the various forums..but most owners like to stay quiet.

 

[Kevin_Breeze]

David, ok man, but that doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Why would everyone who buys these speakers stay quiet while the rest of the wolrd loves to rave about great new high quality audio products (just look at all the reviews for Ascend's CMB-170's for example).

Anyho, I went to a review link on the insider audio website for stereo times:

http://www.stereotimes.com/speak121701.shtm

Could someone please explain to me why that article give the link for the speakers as av123.com ??

 

[Jon Lane]

Guys, in the not so distant past there were Swan threads with literally thousands of posts and tens of thousands of views. I believe AVS archived some not that long ago. We've only been sponsoring HTF (because we like it!) for about a year.

We've posted review links from our site as well, as Kevin has found. AV123 was the initial importer following development of the line in late 1999.

Then...you can always ask me stuff. I'm real honest. And David is right: we never really went for the speaker-cult thing...

 

[Kevin_Breeze]

Jon, since you offered to answer questions

Why did AV123 stop importing the Swans and change to the Onix line? Call me silly, but I find it ironic that the Onix and Swan speakers have a similar almost identical shape and finishes....is their a connection here?

Edit: As far as the never going for the speaker cult thing, I am not trying to be a smart a** but how can you speak for all the buyers of these speakers? The "cult" thing is usually a natural occurance when you bring a hot new product to the market. the way your site is advertised, the products descriptions and the links to reviews, your membership on this site, and offering to include the speaker in this shootout doesn't exactly indicate an attempt to shy away from such things, which wouldn't make much sense anyhow...

 

[Kevin_Breeze]

Sorry guys I keep hogging this thread, but this Swan thing has really peaked my interest and I just can't seem to grasp why this speaker has ZERO reviews on audioreview.com if it has been out for 4 years now??

This is the description on Audioreview.com:
"The legendary Swans 6.1 is rated about as high as anything in its class. The Swan 6.1 is perhaps the most popular and exciting full-sized speaker models ever offered through direct channels."
(sorry it just seems comical this is the description when there is zero reviews)

the first few words on the insider audio site to describe the Swan 6.1BC:
"When the Swan 6.1 burst on the global audio scene four years ago, it created what can only be called a phenomenon."

To quote Jon here in this thread:
"...running in and out of sold-out status just about all of the time.."

Hmm, yet not a single review on audioreview.com including their speaker packages??

Please understand I am not trying to be negative, I am honestly just baffled by this...I feel like a hardy boy trying to solve a silly mystery here, lol.