Hulu Shogun (2024) (2 Viewers)

[Baenwort]

So it seems they are remaking the R. Chamberlain series?



Haven't heard about this until the trailer showed up in my feed.

 

[jayembee]

I seem to recall hearing about this some time back, but had completely forgotten about it.

 

[NeilO]

2 episodes tonight.
Great review of the series in today's Washington Post. Shared as a gift post.

https://wapo.st/3wx9prU

 

[David_B_K]

I forgot about this as well. I read the novel back in the late 70's and I enjoyed the original miniseries. The miniseries was faithful to the novel, but it de-emphasized the Japanese characters. There were no scenes involving the Japanese characters speaking to each other, and it there were a few short ones, there were no subtitles. They wanted to make the series entirely from Blackthorne's POV and wanted to emphasize his alienation/communication problems. Also, even though the original series had a big budget, it has that "TV look" that a lot of shows had when they were composed for a small square screen. The new series looks more cinematic.

 

[Desslar]

I forgot about this as well. I read the novel back in the late 70's and I enjoyed the original miniseries. The miniseries was faithful to the novel, but it de-emphasized the Japanese characters. There were no scenes involving the Japanese characters speaking to each other, and it there were a few short ones, there were no subtitles. They wanted to make the series entirely from Blackthorne's POV and wanted to emphasize his alienation/communication problems. Also, even though the original series had a big budget, it has that "TV look" that a lot of shows had when they were composed for a small square screen. The new series looks more cinematic.

I love the original series and think it looks great. My one issue with it is that after I learned to speak Japanese (reasonably well) I found that there is a lot of repetitive dialogue in the series. First there will be a conversational exchange in Japanese, and then someone will turn to Blackthorne and say the exact same thing in English. Not sure what a better approach would have been.

 

[Walter Kittel]

I'm a little bit surprised that this show doesn't have more activity on the forum. I viewed episodes one and two over the weekend and was really impressed with all aspects of the series.

The series definitely gives a 'Game of Thrones' vibe in multiple ways including 'world building', strong production design, and political turmoil and intrigue. It features a solid cast...

I've seen Hiroyuki Sanada in multiple roles over the years. For me, he sort of feels like the go-to guy for certain roles requiring a male Japanese character with a certain edge. He is always reliable and is quite effective in this series to date as Yoshii Toranaga. One of the five Regents who holds power in 1600 Japan in the wake of the death of the Taiko which has the effect of creating a power vacuum. We see Toranaga as the ostensible protagonist of the series through multiple means including - The other regents are shown to be power hungry and cruel in their methods. The various lighting schemes when Toranaga is on camera tend towards warmer colors. It feels similar to The Godfather where Don Corleone, despite his flaws, is presented as more honorable than his rivals.

Cosmo Jarvis portrays John Blackthorne who is an English ship's pilot. He is one of the few survivors of what was initially a five ship convoy (?) attempting to reach Japan and establish trade for the English in opposition to the Portuguese monopoly. I don't believe I've seen Jarvis previously, but I'm liking his work as our viewpoint into a foreign culture. His voice and diction remind me of Tom Hardy in some ways.

Anna Sawai portrays Toda Mariko who is aligned with Toranaga and serves, in some segments, as a translator for dialog between Toranaga and Blackthorne. Will she become romantically involved with Blackthorne in this telling of the story? We'll see. She was also in the recent Monarch series on Apple TV.

I would also mention Nestor Carbonell, who has a limited role in the series - as per IMDB, as the Spanish pilot Rodriguez. Some folks might remember him as Richard Alpert on Lost. He has some very entertaining interactions with Blackthorne.

It is a very entertaining series and (once again) I am impressed with all facets of the production. Definitely recommended.

- Walter.

 

[NeilO]

I haven't watched it yet, been catching up on Death and Other Details. I do plan on watching some this week.

Here is a note from author Somtow Sucharitkul about the use of language in this adaptation.

The degree of care taken over Asian languages has certainly improved over the decades. I still remember the scene in “The Man with the Golden Gun” where two women were supposedly speaking to each other in Thai, but one of them was actually speaking Chinese. I remember an episode of “Law and Order” set in Chinatown where two people had a conversation, one in Cantonese and the other in Mandarin.

I watched “Shōgun” a few days ago and the first thing I noticed was that they’re speaking archaic Japanese such as is found in Japanese period films. Suddenly the whole thing became credible. It wasn’t just exotic dress-up.
One of the most annoying things about the book, which seriously gets in the way of the riveting storyline, is that Japanese phrases are used for coloring but they’re the kind of things you’d learn in a tourist phrase book or even from a rent-a-girlfriend. Unfortunately this carried over into the 1980s miniseries and provided constant jolts of embarrassment.

Not that I actually speak Japanese, mind you, but I know enough. You watch enough movies, you pick up languages. When a kid says “chichi ue” to his dad or sentences keep ending in “de gozaru” you know you’re hanging out with samurai.

 

[Joe Wong]

Agree with @Walter Kittel.

My wife and I watched the first 2 eps last weekend. Initially it was a little difficult to follow with the various names and faces and the subtitles, but there was a nice exposition scene in Ep 2 where they associated the Regents' names with their faces.

I also appreciate they didn't downplay the spoken Japanese. It would have taken me out of the show if every Japanese character spoke in English to other Japanese characters.

I also liked that while the Europeans (and Lady Mariko) are speaking English on the show, it's meant to be a translation of Portuguese.

A good mix of adventure, culture, and political intrigue.

 

[Joe Wong]

Anna Sawai portrays Toda Mariko who is aligned with Toranaga and serves, in some segments, as a translator for dialog between Toranaga and Blackthorne. Will she become romantically involved with Blackthorne in this telling of the story? We'll see. She was also in the recent Monarch series on Apple TV.

Takehiro Hira, who plays the lead opposing Regent, Ishido, was also in Monarch.

 

[jayembee]

I'm a little bit surprised that this show doesn't have more activity on the forum.

I haven't had a chance to watch it yet. The last two weeks, my sister-in-law has been staying with us. It's caused quite a bit of disruption in our normal activity.

I've seen Hiroyuki Sanada in multiple roles over the years. For me, he sort of feels like the go-to guy for certain roles requiring a male Japanese character with a certain edge. He is always reliable and is quite effective in this series to date as Yoshii Toranaga.

Yeah, he seems to be everywhere these days. My favorite of his roles was in The Twilight Samurai.

I would also mention Nestor Carbonell, who has a limited role in the series - as per IMDB, as the Spanish pilot Rodriguez. Some folks might remember him as Richard Alpert on Lost. He has some very entertaining interactions with Blackthorne.

I still think of him as Batmanuel in The Tick. Does he still have his egregious amount of eye shadow in Shogun?

 

[jayembee]

I haven't watched it yet, been catching up on Death and Other Details. I do plan on watching some this week.

Here is a note from author Somtow Sucharitkul about the use of language in this adaptation.

The degree of care taken over Asian languages has certainly improved over the decades. I still remember the scene in “The Man with the Golden Gun” where two women were supposedly speaking to each other in Thai, but one of them was actually speaking Chinese. I remember an episode of “Law and Order” set in Chinatown where two people had a conversation, one in Cantonese and the other in Mandarin.

Back in the day I'd seen an indie film called Combination Platter, which had a scene of two characters of Chinese descent -- one a cook, the other a waiter -- talking to each other while waiting for their boss to arrive to open the restaurant. Both were talking "Chinese", but it was clear that they were having trouble understanding each other. The cook was speaking Mandarin and the waiter was speaking Cantonese.

I got a kick out of that, as it was intentional.

 

[Joe Wong]

3rd ep was great - an engaging mix of political intrigue, action and even humour!

 

[NeilO]

I finally got around to watching the first two episodes last night and tonight. It definitely takes a while to get into it. By the end of the second episode I was thoroughly engrossed. I will watch more this week.

I definitely did not recognize Nestor Carbonelli in the first two episodes. I just went back to the beginning of the second and found it hard to "see him." Looking on imdb I see a photo from the first episode of him and he does pop out.

Shōgun (2024)

Nestor Carbonell, Cosmo Jarvis, and Rodrigues in Shōgun (2024)

www.imdb.com

 

[Walter Kittel]

I (obviously) haven't posted in this thread for a while, but Shogun is easily the best thing I've been watching lately. One thing I really like about the series is how it uses Blackthorne's acclimation to Japanese culture as a means to slowly immerse us (the viewers) into this time and place. The series continues to excel and I am loving how the political machinations play out as the season progresses. I mentioned Game of Thrones and I feel like that comparison is still as apt as when I previously posted.

Despite (or is that because of?) his duplicitous nature I am deeply invested in Yabushige as a character. I think his scenes are just great as he goes further and further down the rabbit hole. Toranaga sees completely through him and Yabushige knows it. Their exchanges are invariably one of the highlights of the series for me.

Spoilers for episode four...

Spoiler

The finale was just brutal. I am not certain that chain shot is that accurate, particularly at range, but it was used to devastating effect.

- Walter.

 

[NeilO]

Just watched the third episode. They had extra space in the timeslot so they added on some series background for a few minutes. They also mentioned that there is an official podcast. I just started listening to the first and there is some good information on how they made the series including the translations.

I think you can listen to the podcast at this site or via one of the usual methods. There is a transcript of the podcast as well.

Shōgun Podcast Episode 1 | FX's Shōgun

Listen to episode 1 of the podcast from FX's Shōgun

www.fxnetworks.com

 

[NeilO]

Nestor Carbonell tells how he did the drowning scene in the third episode podcast.

 

[David_B_K]

I (obviously) haven't posted in this thread for a while, but Shogun is easily the best thing I've been watching lately. One thing I really like about the series is how it uses Blackthorne's acclimation to Japanese culture as a means to slowly immerse us (the viewers) into this time and place. The series continues to excel and I am loving how the political machinations play out as the season progresses. I mentioned Game of Thrones and I feel like that comparison is still as apt as when I previously posted.

Despite (or is that because of?) his duplicitous nature I am deeply invested in Yabushige as a character. I think his scenes are just great as he goes further and further down the rabbit hole. Toranaga sees completely through him and Yabushige knows it. Their exchanges are invariably one of the highlights of the series for me.

Spoilers for episode four...

Spoiler

The finale was just brutal. I am not certain that chain shot is that accurate, particularly at range, but it was used to devastating effect.

- Walter.

I have watched 5 episodes. So far it is really good. I prefer it to the 1980 version because the dialog of the Japanese characters is included. It reminds me more of the cultural immersion of the book than the 1980 TV version did. Just for grins, I put on the Blu-ray of the 1980 version and compared some scenes.

In many instances, the scenes play out the same, but the new version is far more cinematic. When the characters are in a Japanese house, it really looks like a house, and you can see the ceilings, doorways, etc. In the 1980 version all the interior house scenes look like they are shot in a studio. The scenes of Toronaga's escape look very studio backlot rather than on location. Both versions tell the same story, but the new version seems more real and packs a bigger punch. The camera angles and lighting in the 1980 version just look like a TV show to me.

The addition of subtitles for the Japanese speaking characters is a huge plus. In the older version Yabushige (called simply Yabu in 1980 and in the book) lost most of his dialog and character nuances. That was a shame, because he is sort of a lovable rogue in the Tuco mold. Also, when we see Mariko translate in the new version, she diplomatically softens Blackthorne's more fiery responses without him knowing. We know because we have subtitles for the Japanese. If she was doing that in the 1980 version no one knows since they didn't have the subtitles. This adds more tension to the scenes. Because the actress playing Mariko is fluent in English, her character has more depth than she did in 1980. The actress in 1980 spoke English phonetically and IMO did not have very subtle inflections in her line delivery (both actresses are beautiful however).

A couple of things I liked about the old version: Richard Chamberlain brings a more romantic quality to Blackthorne than does the gravelly-voiced Cosmo Jarvis (but both are good). I also like seeing the Portuguese priests wearing orange garments in 1980. In the book it was explained that the Japanese required this of them because priests in Japan wore orange. It looked incongruous, but that added to the craziness of the world Blackthorne found himself in (only the higher-ranking priest on the ship wore black in the 1980 version).

I hope to get caught up with the show this weekend. I also have a couple of Masters of the Air episodes to watch.

 

[Walter Kittel]

Viewed episode seven earlier this evening. Man, the plotting and calculation just never lets up; and that is a good thing. Some terrific sequences in this episode as we gain a little bit more understanding of Toronaga.

Without getting too spoilerish, I wonder how much, if any, Gin had to do in planning the final portion of the episode. Very surprising finale which leaves me wondering about the ramifications it might have for the remainder of the series.

Three episodes left, and I absolutely am going to miss this when it concludes.

- Walter.

 

[benbess]

Since I don't have hulu, I'm hoping this will be available on blu-ray at some point.

 

[Walter Kittel]

Season and show finale this evening...

The finale might seem a bit anti-climactic after the momentous events of episode nine, but I think that interpretation misses the larger arc of the series. Episode 10 did a fantastic job of concluding the season and addressed all of the major plot lines of the season. Just a terrific episode, concluding a terrific season. The final scene with Fuji and Blackthorne was one of the most emotionally resonant scenes I've viewed in quite some time. Just a perfect ending to their time together in Japan. Brilliant.

With regards to the question of a media release, I hope so. The production, costuming, and cinematography are all splendid looking and would be a real treat on a UHD/BD release.

- Walter.