PIONEER VSX-24TX and it Elite Family- are they good? (1 Viewer)

[Mark Nelson]

Gentlemen
I can't tell you how pleased I was to read on this forum some support for local brick and mortar dealerships. While I know it Elite's policy not to honor warranty claims on any product purchased outside the selling dealer's region, the power of the internet still scares the hell out of us small dealers who are trying to make a living in the field we love. Our store is open 'til 7PM nightly, but I stayed until 8:30 the last two nights to play various systems for people trying to decide what to buy. This is my greatest pleasure, but some of them will surely try to find their chosen units on the internet. After doing this they are likely to be back asking for help on the setup or just an interpretation of the manual. We will happily help them, knowing all the while that we have been used.
Well, that's life...but it's a shame to think that all our accumulated experience, work and good intentions still may not keep us from being forced from our chosen field. The power of the internet for "price shopping" is our most intimidating competitor. Yes, we could probably join them if we can't lick them, but that's not the way we want to do Home Theater business.
Anyway thanks for the supportive words.
MTN
P.S. I have tried running new VSX series receivers in "large" mode with the LFE in "plus" and YES the sub is still active, even in stereo.

 

[Mark Nelson]

Ok...so last week we(the 3 of us that run our store) took about 3 hours and did an audio only shootout between the Denon AVR-5700 and the Pioneer Elite VSX-29TX. We calibrated them both into the M&K S-150THX system with an M&K MX-350THX sub and tri-pole rears. Then we equalized the volume between them and disregarding all other issues, just listened to them is stereo, DPL, DTS and DD.
First thing we could agree on was that they both make the M&K's sound much better than the VSX-09TX we had been using on them for over a year.
Next, by switching them from a different room using Niles IR repeaters so the test moderator wouldn't know what he was switching to, we chose our favorite in each mode.
Well, they were very close, but to our surprise(since we are big Elite fans) the 5700 was a winner in all categories. The only consistent difference we could point to that turned our heads every time was a sense of greater CLARITY and OPENNESS.
Once again, the difference was small, and the VSX-29TX is $800.00 less, but these are both "flagship" efforts so we thought we should have an opinion. Happily for us we can now wholeheartedly voice our opinion that the Denon 5700 is truly "better sounding" than the Elite. Whew! At that price we would have been in big trouble if it wasn't.
Of course, that also means we can get excited about selling the whole VSX-24 thru 29 series, as they are damn close and a bunch less money. But, boy...that 5700 sure sounded good!
Now we have got to put the 3300 to the test and figure out where it fits into the scheme of things.
MTN

 

[Yung Lieu]

Hi can someone tell me what LFE bass peak should be set to on the VSX-24TX ? I have the Energy ES-8 sub and I put the LFE setting at -30db. Is this correct ? How do I measure
what proper settings should be ?

 

[David C.]

If I use the 24TX's preamp outputs for the surround channels, does it automatically turn off the internal surround amps?
I hope it doesn't. If and when a Dolby Digital Surround EX outboard decoder is available for home theater, I would like to be able to use the 24TX's left/right surround amps for its intended purpose and drive EX's additional rear center channel with an outboard amp.
Thanks.

 

[David Susilo]

David C
Although the amp might be automatically turned off when there is no load on the amplifier terminals (in order to lower the unit's temperature to prolong the unit's life), there is no reason for disabling the amp when the pre-out is being used.
I'm just talking from my experience with an amp I used when I was in Australia. I never tested it per se, but I hardly can feel the heat coming from the amp when the I disconnect the speakers and use my amp just as a switcher.
Yung Lieu
I'll answer your question as soon as I've got my health back. Feeling really ill. My apology for the delay.

 

[Pierce Lee]

Hi Robert,
Please tell us more about this "Midnight mode". How can it "had plenty of bass and could hear the actors" but not wake up the neighborhood? What happen to all the other sound frequencies, do they get turned real soft? Does the bass still quakes the foundation?
I haven't seen any receiver with such a (DSP?) mode.

 

[Mark Nelson]

David C.
The corresponding internal amps for any pre out on the 24 is still running when you use the pre out with an outboard amp. On my VSX-27TX (and previously on my VSX-09TX) I am running a second set of rear channel speakers to fill the back of my room(ala 5.1EX) using a Parasound HC1000A amp. The internal amps for the rear channels are still running my first pair of rears. It works great and I look forward to doing the "EX" thing when available.
MTN

 

[David C.]

Well, I've been in the market for an a/v receiver for the last two weeks or so when I returned a Dolby Digital receiver because it was defective. I was about to buy a recently used Denon AVR-2700 (which was Stereophile's Guide to Home Theater's 1998 receiver of the year) until I read recently about Dolby Digital Surround EX and the possibility of an outboard decoder being available for home theater (it requires right/left surround preamp outputs).
I considered waiting for a month or so for the upcoming Denon AVR-2800 but I couldn't get any details about it in a recent conversation with a Denon rep (whether it was upgraded with surround preamp outputs) and I wanted a receiver ASAP. I started looking into the Pioneer Elite line. First the VSX-21, it looked like it had most of what I wanted, Cinema Re-EQ, 5.1 preamp ins/outs, display dimmer/off, and it was as much as I was willing to pay for a new receiver.
Then the 24TX started to pique my interest. It had a better amp (just like its big brothers except for less watts), better looks, and it was THX Select certified which gives me the flexibility of using THX post processing on certain movies, and the comfort of knowing that the receiver meets THX's requirements (this was important because when I buy a/v electronics, I like to read personal reviews as well as professional reviews, but I was unable to find any of the latter). Other factors that swayed me to the 24TX over the 21 was a backlit universal/learning remote, and an 80 Hz crossover frequency rather than 100 Hz (both have multiple crossover settings but I think the 21's lowest setting is 100 Hz). All of my speakers handle 80 Hz so I wanted to get the most sound out of them.
The 24TX was over my budget, but in the end I decided to upgrade from the 21 mostly because of its added features, and partly because of David Susilo's recommendation for its better sound with music (since he has both of them).
I ordered the 24TX sight unseen, sound unheard this morning and I can't wait til I hook it up to my home theater rig, rent the Godzilla DVD, and tear things apart!
I really believe the 24TX is one of the best values of all the new receivers. The Denon AVR-3300 is also solid; it's more expensive but someone might find its features more appropriate for their needs.
Thanks to David Susilo, Mark Nelson, and all others for a very informative thread. Without it, and Pioneer's excellent web site (www.pioneerelectronics.com), I wouldn't have been able to decide on a receiver so quickly.
Dave

 

[David Susilo]

David C
Wow! I hope you'll love the 24TX the way I loved it.
I hope you'll come back to this thread and continue our discussions about the ELite series together with this family.
(After nearing 400 posts, I feel that anybody who joins this thread as a part of the family regardless of their view about this Elite receivers.)

 

[Jerry75]

I'm sorry to go back to the sub thing but I need something cleared up. I am currently trying to decide between the 24x and 26x. From what I understand, on the 24x when you set your sub to "plus" and the two mains to large, the two mains will not run full range. If this is true, is that also the case with the 26x? I have Paradigm Monitor 7's that I want to run full range so if i can do that with the 26x then I have finally settled on a receiver!
Thanks,
Jerry

 

[David Susilo]

Maaaaark! Where are you? Maybe you can help Jerry75.
Jerry75,
I can't answer your question in full since I don't have a full-range speakers to test it with.
However, for sure, 24TX and 26TX is identical in this particular matter. So it won't make any difference whether you buy the 24TX or the 26TX, they will do the exact same thing.

 

[Mark Nelson]

Jerry 75 (?)
When you set up your VSX-24,26,27,29TX receiver to run the front left and right speakers in "large" mode and the subwoofer to "plus", the front right and left will ALWAYS run full range, regardless of whether the sytem is used in stereo, DPL, DD or DTS (or DSP).
The subwoofer will then receive LFE AND right/left front signal below the chosen sub crossover point during ANY SURROUND MODE. It will receive ONLY right/left signal below the chosen crossover point and NO LFE when the receiver is in stereo or "direct" mode.
Hope this is understandable.
MTN

 

[Tom J. Davis]

Ok, I'm going nuts here trying to decide on a receiver. Anyway.
Mark: I'm trying to find a receiver that will let me run in this configuration -- full range left/right front (no crossover point selected) with no lfe bass going to the fronts, lfe going to the subwoofer, surrounds full range with no crossover point selected and no lfe signal. Center small or full doesn't matter. This would be in DD mode.
Can I do this with the Pioneer Elite 24? If not, can it be done with one of the other Elite's? Could it be done in straight DD or THX mode or both?
If I can't do this with any Elite can it be done with any other receiver.
Just doesn't seem like a good idea to send all the bass to the lfe channel. If you have full range front and rear of course.
Thanks alot,
Tom

 

[David Susilo]

Tom J Davis,
Yes you can do that with the entire Elite family.
Yung Lieu,
Got my health partially back, so here it is.
To set the peak of your bass, although you can actually use spectrum analyzer to do it, there are three ways to do this from the school of always-trust-your-ears.
1. Set the peak to the point that you can start hearing bass distortion coming from your woofer, then move the setting back about a notch or two. (For me, this is usually to loud for my taste)
2. Set the peak to the point your listening room (or any other item in the room) starts vibrating, then move the setting back about a notch or two. (For me, this is useless since in my listening room, nothing can rattle)
3. Set the peak to the point you start feeling uncomfortable with the bass sound coming from your sub, then move the setting back about a notch or two. (This is the best way to set it up, according to me)
The reason I try not to use the spectrum analyzer for this particular issue is because the spectrum analyzer can not take:
a. bass distortion
b. room resonance
c. comfort level
into its measurement accurately.
If anybody have another way to do this in a more reliable fashion, please let us know.
THanX.
Dave

 

[Fred Tedsen]

David (C and/or S),
...THX Select certified which gives me the flexibility of using THX post processing on certain movies...
Why not use THX on all movies? If not, how would you know on which movies to use it?
Fred

 

[Fred Tedsen]

David S,
One other thing: you keep refering to a three-year warranty. The warranty information that cam with my 24TX states that the warranty is for only two years. Perhaps there is a different warranty in Canada?
Fred

 

[David Susilo]

Fred,
Is there a difference in warranty period? I really don't know, the Canadian Elite is for sure 3-year.
I personally don't hear the advantage of THX other than the Cinema Re-EQ, I only use this for the movies I deem to harsh in the higher frequencies. For example, The Fugitive and Air Force One.
Hope it helps,
Dave

 

[Yung Lieu]

David S,
Thanks for your reply. Hope you get well soon. Your dedication to help other members is phenonemal.

 

[Peter Gregg]

Hi,
I have purchased a 24TX for a friend and set it up for him. It sounds awsome. My brother liked it so much that he had me order one for him also. I just set his up for him last night and he was in heaven. I have to admit it sounds great. This receiver will not disappoint.
It was interesting that both of them had the same "problem". Having been following this post from the begining I see the same problem surfacing here over and over - the speaker settings, LARGE and SMALL.
Pioneer made a big mistake in the labeling of their speaker selection settings. Guys don't inherently like the word "small". When my brother saw I set the speakers to "small" he went through the roof. "I don't have small speakers." Pioneer would have been better off using another choice of words.
When you get past the wording, it is a selection that lets you direct the bass. In his house, "small" sounds the best. Both he, and my friend would not allow me to leave the setting to "small" though and I needed to find another solution.
The best setting I found after doing a comparison of all the different matching choices, was to put the speaker setting to "large" turn the screen setting of the THX to off, this is done by setting it to "FREE" (this is different than using the front panel button for THX so don't get freaked out, with the screen menu set to THX you don't have the freedom to mix and match the sub settings) and setting the sub to PLUS. This gave them both the subwoofer in the stereo mode and bass response to their speakers too. My friend has a set Bose speakers (but they aren't "small" remember?), and I selected the Definitive speakers for my brother. Both systems sound great. Both systems sounded a bit better to me in the "small" setting - but neither can get over spending all that money and setting anything to "small".
All of this nonsense is moot when you go to DD or DTS. It is also moot if you go to the 5 channel stereo mode.
What is weird though, if you have an additional set of speakers connected to the B speakers, you cannot turn them on in any mode and still have the surrounds firing. I wanted to use them to fill in from high overhead (tall ceilings).
Peter

 

[Mark Nelson]

Tom Davis
Dave (the quickly recovering authority, we hope)is right about the ability of any Elite receiver to do what you asked about.
Just go to speaker setup mode and choose:
Right & Left fronts= Large
Center= your choice
Right & Left rears= Large
Sub= yes
Then choose the desired crossover point for the LFE channel, do the rest of the setup menu and your stylin'.
Peter Gregg
The reason your rear speakers(and center channel) shut down when activating the "B" speakers is because Pioneer (along with most other manufactureres) intends the "B" speaker output for use with a pair of speakers placed in another room for convienient stereo listening.
If you were playing a DD soundtrack in the main room and activated the "B" speakers in another room, you would only hear the right and left channels of the DD soundtrack in the other room. All the center channel and rear channel info would be lost and it would sound very odd. Since over 80% of what you hear in the average soundtrack comes from the center channel(according to THX training)it would be impossible to enjoy the sound in the second room without it. So when activating the "B" speakers most receivers revert to stereo to minimize confusion.
If you want a second set or rear speakers in your HT (I do this)I suggest you purchase a small stereo power amp with volume pots on the outputs (Parasound makes some nice ones) and run the rear pre-outs of your receiver through this amp to your second set of rear speakers. Using the power amp's volume adjustments you can the balance the second set of rears into the system seamlessly. This is not cheap, but it works great and can be used to give you a Dolby 5.1EX type rear channel.
MTN