Official Panasonic DMP-BD10 Blu-Ray player thread (1 Viewer)

[Grant H]

Hmm. This is another area where it might pay to not cheap out and keep an eye on manufactureres who might do so.

The Panasonic has earned favorable reviews in the audio domain, even regarding its DVD-Audio ability, meaning it may have some decent D/A converters built in. The Toshiba HD-DVD player is supposed to be built like a brick ****house too. This could be an area that will be sacrificed down the road to lower the costs of players while keeping profits high. Especially with the industry's apparent attitude that audio is quite secondary. Hopefully Panasonic will stick to the trend they've started for a while, at least long enough to make most everybody happy by incorporating HDMI 1.3 in their next-gen player without exchanging anything else for lower-end components.

I don't know how soon we'll see semi-affordable next-gen receivers with all this decoding either, as these advanced audio codecs only exist in the HD realm, which hasn't caught on yet. (Remember when you could say, "All right! This one does DTS!"?) I can see a few high-end models will cater to the audiophiles and early adopters, but I would imagine these would go for big bucks. Do-everything receivers finally reached a mass market thanks to DVD catching on. There isn't much incentive to go beyond what's out there just yet. Can't have the egg without the chicken, can't have the chicken without the egg........

Mmm. Chicken and eggs. Sorry; it's almost dinnertime.

 

[GoldenRedux]

But, as I've commented before, this is not necessarily a given. It all depends on the quality of the DACs and the quality of the analogue stage and so forth in each unit. I have heard many players hold their own or do better than high end A/V receivers. I have yet to hear any outboard DAC better the performance of my Sony XA9000ES playing back through its own in-box DACs and analogue section, and that includes Sony's flagship A/V receiver that decodes DSD via FireWire. My Denon DVD-2200 sounds better to my ears playing back through its analogue outs than through my DA4ES's DACs, but I do use the DA4ES's DACs when playing DVD movies so I can do some post processing, which I like for movies, but not for music and it does sound good.

 

[Dave Moritz]

I am under the impression that HDMI 1.3 had to be used in order to output Dolby True HD or DTS-HD to a reciever in order for it to be able to decode it and turn it into a analog signal? If that is not the case then I will not worry about what ver of HDMI the player has. But I thought HDMI 1.3 was necisary in order to pass the lossless audio to an external decoder. While the Panasonic having 7.1 analog outs is great. I would like to have better processing down the road when I upgrade my current reciever and use it to do the decoding/processing.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

GoldenRedux,

Absolutely. It all depends. My outboard d/a converter by Audio Alchemy still sounds better than any stand-alone CD player *or* receiver's DACs I've heard. Some players have better dacs... and some surround decoders have betterr dacs... as you say it depends.

I typically don't think of "receivers"... even very good ones, when I think of high-end audiophile D/A conversion. No Sony, Denon, or Pioneer receiver even comes close to touching the sound of my Alchemy d/a converter.

But There is some proceed and lexicon gear that does.

Dave,

HDMI 1.3 is necessary to send advanced audio codecs in *compressed form* to an outboard processor. But if the player can extract the compressed bitstream to LPCM, this LPCM can be sent over either HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 to an outobard processor. In both these modes the processor would be performing the d/a conversion.

Is that clear?

 

[LanceJ]

NOW I finally know what's going on! Thanks David B! I kept hearing different stories of how the audio was processed/transferred with these formats but they contradicted each other.

Does anyone know the answer to these questions? > So to be able to use the HDMI cable for analog audio originating from the receiver, one has to find a receiver that includes DACs for its HDMI input (& not just switching capabilities) correct? Is there a logo or something that indiactes this rather major capability?

Second: regarding bass management in the HDMI/receiver combination above, does the player perform B.M. duties.......or does the receiver do that?

btw: one scenario that I bet could confuse HT newbies: on receivers so equipped, when they see the "5.1 LPCM" indicator light up on the receiver's display, I bet some will think this means TrueHD or DTS-HD is being heard, rather than just decompressed "regular" Dolby/DTS. And the world of audio becomes even murkier...........

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Actually, most BD and HD DVD players will probably leave traditional DTS and DD signals alone in compressed form since those signals area allowed over all forms of HDMI and SPDIF digital and all processors can deal with them natively. The only unfolding to LPCM that I'm aware of with the Toshiba A1, for instance, is with Dolby Digital + and True HD tracks. Regular DD/DTS is left alone in compressed bitstream form even over HDMI.

You're right... it if all got decompressed (which a player could do if set up that way) it would all look the same as far as the indicator lights on the processor.

 

[GoldenRedux]

That's true, receivers aren't very good outboard DACs, IMO, but I have yet to hear any outboard DAC outperform my XA9000ES either. I've never really been big on outbaord DACs as a given for better sound, espcecially not when you're already talking about a player which itslef may cost $2000 or more! Maybe it all comes down to personal preference in the end, because it is all so subjective.

There is an interesting point that was brought up about bass management. I'm wondering what kind of bass management the Panny offers inside the player itself? Surely it must have an option for setting the speaker sizes as well as time alignment? Maybe a crossover setting? This is pretty much standard in players such as this today (well, not crossover). I would expect that, given the Panasonic does DVD-A as well, that its bass management is pretty good.

 

[Grant H]

Yes, I'd be interested in this info. too. A lot of receivers (at least mine) can't do any bass management when the 5.1/7.1 inputs are used (you know, now that I think of it, I think my player does say "7.1" when in that mode; I must have more inputs than I thought--not the space for the speakers though!). My receiver is at the mercy of the bass management of my SACD player when I play that disc. Which is unfortunate, since it's bass management doesn't work on 2.0 sound.:frowning: Worked fine for multichannel though.

So, Ben, any info you'd like to share about the Panny's capabilities in this regard would be very helpful to those of us who would be relying on the player (or it's successors') processing abilities. I would think it would have to have speaker size/bass management, distance, all that jazz.

 

[GoldenRedux]

I've checked the .pdf file for the Panasonic user's guide online, and there is built-in bass management, called the 'Speaker presence and size' setting. It has all the usual things - the speaker size can be set for large or small and the subwoofer can be set as on or off. Unfortunately, according to the manual, the cross-over setting seems to be 100Hz, which is way too high, IMO, but it's better than nothing.

There is also time alignment for all speakers called the 'Delay time' setting and a 'Channel balance' setting, which I presume is to set the levels. The 'Delay time' setting is a bit convoluted as it doesn't let you set the speaker distances, but, rather, you must set the actual delay time in milliseconds, determined obviously by speaker distances. They provide some sort of table for you to make the calculation with.

 

[GoldenRedux]

I will say one thing, looking at the diagrams in the Panasonic manual for setting up your speakers and adjusting the speaker settings, it is no wonder to me that the average consumer is at a complete loss and almost completely clueless when it comes to these formats and understanding what they are and how to actually use them - the thing looks like you need an engineering degree!

 

[Grant H]

Couldn't be any worse than the manual of my friend's Sony theater-in-a-box. Some of the stuff in there was actually plain WRONG. It confused me so much I had to sit down and think about it and re-write things to what they SHOULD have said, even though it had no real bearing on me. But the fact it made no sense made me batty.

100 Hz crossover; yes, too low, but the same as my receiver's lowest built-in crossover anyway. At least I know my speakers are operating well within their limits. And I think I had to do the calculations with my Philips SACD too. Why they can't just do them for you and let you set it at distance I don't know. But it's a small matter.

Thanks for the info. Nice that Panasonic already has everything online.

 

[GoldenRedux]

It is nowhere to be found on their U.S. site. Oddly, it has been up on their U.K. site for quite some time, and the player hasn't even launched in Europe yet. Weird.

 

[Ben_Williams]

GoldenRedux beat me to the punch!

 

[GoldenRedux]

 

[LanceJ]

Thanks for the info guys.

Why Panasonic would make an owner calculate millseconds --> feet seems silly. I own one of their Technics SA-DA8 receivers - a five year old model - and even its delay system uses feet increments.

I hope this player also applies it b.m. settings to dvd-audio signals. Because I have yet to read of any of their SD dvd players *ever* doing this. FYI: my Pioneer DV-656A dvd-audio player, MSRP $330 in 2003, doesn't have b.m. for dvd-audio either. FYI2: While surround music mixers don't much like any b.m. used with their tracks & recommend full-range speakers all the way around for 5.1 music - "full-range" in their minds going down to 40Hz, not 20 - I know not everyone can or wants to do that.

 

[Daniel Mai]

Ben - Did you ever get the two promo discs yet? The flyer said it would be received (or mailed?) in a week.

 

[Ben_Williams]

I filled out the web form the day I got the player (10/9), but still no freebies in the mail. I'll post as soon as I get them. A week sounds pretty optimistic to me. 2-4 weeks sounds about normal to me.

 

[GoldenRedux]

This is very true. I do a lot of surround mixing myself, and I always have to make the decision whether or not I should apply my own crossover, or leave it to the user.

Personally on my playback systems, I can go full range on all speakers + sub, but I know that many people cannot, especially those with HTiBs. Sometimes, even if you can go full range on all speakers, it may not be optimum, because you then get into distortions and phasing and the like. Ah, the world of audio - always a challenge.

 

[Grant H]

My mains and surrounds are rated for 45 Hz and the center 50Hz I believe.

What I always wondered (and this is OT, but since we've casually drifted this way anyway), does anyone know how low the signals for the main, center, and surround speakers typically drop on 5.1 tracks (mostly referring to movies here)? I used to run my system on "large" with the sub just taking the .1 signal for 5.1 tracks, but it actually sounded a little fuller to me when I switched to "small". Don't know if I was really losing some of the range or if it was phasing-related. I was afraid plus mode would over-exaggerate a certain portion of the bass, so I've avoided the sub plus mode (no, my system doesn't disable the sub when you put the speakers on large, just doesn't divert from the mains). I'm guessing there really isn't any guideline and the ranges vary widely mix-to-mix.

 

[GoldenRedux]

Bingo.