Lists of Blu-ray & HD DVD Titles (Scheduled, Announced, Rumored, Wish List) (1 Viewer)

[Ken_F]

Actually, no announced or production silicon exists which can support both 1080p and decoding of lossless multichannel audio, so any product that claims to offer this is vaporware -- and not likely to ship before this fall, at the earliest. For the next 5-6 months, HD-DVD and Blu-ray manufacturers just have two choices:

1. They can support 1080p, but lack decoding for the new audio formats (older codecs are supported);
2. They can offer decoding for the new audio formats, but lack support for 1080p.

Toshiba and Samsung chose the latter. The Toshiba HD-DVD and Samsung Blu-ray players use the same Broadcom chip. This newly announced decoder is limited to 1080i output, but can decode Dolby TrueHD (2-chan), Dolby Digital Plus (7.1), and DTS-HD (7.1). Contrast that to the $1800 Pioneer and some of the other announced 1080p Blu-ray players which can natively decode none of the new formats; instead, they output the new formats via HDMI for decoding by a future Dolby Digital Plus / DTS-HD receiver (interestingly, Pioneer intends to do this with HDMI v1.1, even though it's only 'officially' supported by HDMI v1.3).

While the Toshiba does offer only 5.1 multichannel analog outputs (they skimped on the extra two outputs to save money), I am not aware of anything that would prevent them from from sending Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD decoded as 7.1 LPCM through the HDMI output, just like the Samsung BD player using the same technology. Do keep in mind that for the forseeable future, most HD-DVD and Blu-ray movies will use high-bitrate or lossless 5.1, since 95+% of all audio masters for modern films are 5.1, not 7.1. They would require a remix for 7.1. We will see some remixes, but they won't be common for some time; they'll probably take the form of 'special editions' released next year.

Second-generation decoders coming this fall should support both 1080p output and the new audio formats on a single chip.

 

[David Math]

Paul,

It has been posted on AVS Forums that there are websites where you can preorder the HD-DVD player for $449 shipped. Now considering my HDTVs can only handle 1080i and both my surround sound systems only handle DD-5.1, I hardly see how $449 can be considered "a waste of money". Because I now own 2 HDTV sets and would like 2 HD DVD players, price is a HUGE factor in my decision. The cost of Blue Ray machines makes it a non-starter for me, especially since I need two machines.

In addition, I own an XBox 360, so there is zero interest in what the PS3 offers. As a result, rather than buying two HD-DVD players in March, I may only purchase one and then wait till the XBox 360 offers the HD-DVD add-on. Depending on which route I go, I will have two HD-DVD players in the $650-900 price range. Within two short months, I will be enjoying both Hi-Def video games and Hi-Def DVD movie playback.

Finally, I only rent or buy approx. 35-40 movies a year. This means there is ample HD-DVD studio support to provide more than enough titles to keep me happy. Give me two 1080i DVD players to play on my two 1080i TVs with my 6 channel surround sound at a reasonable cost (approx. $450) and I will be in electronic heaven.

 

[Dan Hitchman]

I didn't mean just decoding of the new audio formats in-player, but the ability to OUTPUT those formats even if the player lacks it internally. From everything I've read that means HDMI Version 1.3 chips must be installed.

Guess I just don't understand why you would buy a player of either format that doesn't allow for the full A/V specs. (basically one that's a day late and a dollar short). Neither would I buy a receiver or processor right now knowing that they don't FULLY support these new disc formats.

A 1080p capable player can also downconvert to 1080i and 720p. Then you don't have to upgrade yet again so soon.

But, I guess you get what you paid for. Oh well, it's your money.

Dan

 

[David Math]

Dan,

We simply disagree. I am very cost and value conscious and do not desire to pay top dollar for the full set of features on ANY electonic device, whether it is an MP3 player, computer, TV, DVD player, etc. etc. I decide which features will satisfy me in getting me from Point A to Point B which is normally a 4-5 period, a relatively long time frame when it comes to electronics.

Over the last five to six years, I have purchased a $400 HTIB, 4 DVD players less than $100 a piece (including 2 at $30), $370 for a 2.6 GHz computer (monitor included), 3 DirecTivos at an average cost of under $50, 512-MB MP3 player at $40 and so on and so on. I am still using all of these devices. Yes, you do get what you pay for and I could not be happier. I am not about to pay around $1,000+ for a HD-DVD player, which is more than 50% of the cost of some of the HDTV sets. You can say my decision is a waste of money, but I can also say that for me to pay more than twice the price for features I do not desire or will not be able to use for years on the Blue Ray device would also be a waste of money.

It is being said that I will have to upgrade rather soon if I buy an electronic device that does not have the full feature set. I do not see me upgrading to a 1080p TV in at least five years and probably at least 3-4 years on the surround system. What will be the average life span on a typical Hi-Def DVD player? I will guarantee you that many early adopters of Blue Ray players will be upgrading their $1,000+ Blue Ray player before I upgrade my $450 HD-DVD player. Different strokes for different folks. Not saying one approach or mind set is right or wrong.

 

[Ken_F]

My own opinion is that you should buy a player for the equipment you have now.

Summer 2006: HD-DVD players $450, Blu-ray players $950-$1000
Fall/Winter 2006: HD-DVD players $350-$400, Blu-ray players $600-700
Spring 2007: HD-DVD players $250-$350, Blu-ray players $400-$500
Fall 2007: HD-DVD players $200-$250, Blu-ray players $250-$350
Spring 2008: HD-DVD players $150-$200, Blu-ray players $200-$250

I think time has proven again and again that you don't buy CE products for the future.

Not only do prices fall, but with each subsequent generation, you get more and more features for less money. Some people can afford to spend $1800 for a high-end player every year as a sort of status symbol. However, for everyone else, it's much more economical to spend $500 on a player to support your existing setup, then another $250 in two years (with all the features and more of the $1800 player) to support your newest HT setup.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Dan's point about wasting money on a HD DVD player is partly because all those SAME MOVIES and ***MORE*** will be available on BD (except Universal until they announce), and so you'll be buying a BD player anyway if you have plans to watch anything in hi-def from Sony, MGM, Disney, or FOX.


So why by two players when you could have just bought ONE?


If someone has the patience to wait just a few months for Blu-ray releases, they could have saved the money they would have spent on that HD DVD player and use it for *movies*.

Only people who only plan to buy ONLY universal HD DVDs will be exempt from the need to purchase a BD-compatible player. And even that is likely to change shortly.




He's talking about players that can *output* the digital signal to be encoded by another device. First-gen HD DVD players can't even do that.

And don't be fooled by these early price-point announcements. Trust me, when the rubber meets the road two things will happen:

1. There will be low-priced BD players to compete with HD DVD.

2. Low-price HD DVD players will recognized for the featureless and (likely) problematic performance that they deliver.

 

[Juan C]

I totally agree with DaViD. Just one thing. A few weeks ago, one 'industry insider' at avs said that "absolutely everything HD DVD might throw at Blu-ray (player price, title slate, etc.), Blu-ray can counter". At the time it sounded a bit arrogant... but now I think they're just confident.

 

[Ken_F]

I think we have to be careful when presuming what will and won't happen. If you are going to presume that Universal is going to adopt BD soon, you can just as easily presume that some of the other studios will support HD-DVD. Don't count on anything til it happens.

No studio is really expected to make money on disks sold in the next year or two.

As far as pricing, we already have comments from Matsushita (Panasonic) executives in Japan where they state there isn't much interest among BD companies in competing with the PS3 in price on first-generation products. They are waiting until component costs fall. I certainly expect standalone BD players to hit price levels comparable to $499 Toshiba, but I would be surprised if it happened before next Spring, and who knows how cheap HD-DVD players will be by then. Perhaps HD-DVD players will be $250 then, or maybe they'll still be $400-$500.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Toshiba's HD DVD player pricing won't follow traditional price-flow models because they are *already* vastly under-pricing their player in an attempt to under-cut Blu-ray sales via artifically lowered prices (and losing a lot of money in the process...but it's their last alternative to try to make the format viable at all).

If they can sustain that pricing that will be a feat in itself, but I can't imagine those already artifically-lowered prices dropping at the same rate and to the same degree as the usual pricing models would predict.

Normally new product launches give the manufactures a chance to showcase statement products prices in a way that gives a comfortable margin/profit to recoup development costs (ie, the pioneer elite player). Then over the next few years prices fall to "commodity levels" for most items.

Toshiba has simply jumped the gun and gone straight for commodity pricing, and the lowered costs even further and is losing money on every sale. That's not a forumla for expected continued price-drops as rapidly or as dramatically as the "elite" products will follow.

 

[MatthewA]

DaViD, I have 2 questions:

1. When DVDs are replaced, will you change your name to BeRnarD?

2. Why are you not a paid consultant to the people making these decisions? You're more than qualified.

 

[Ken_F]

I think you're speculating too much. :frowning: We just don't know. An HD-DVD representative over on AVS (typo) claimed players could/would drop another $150 in time for Christmas.

 

[Jesse Blacklow]

I don't know how they're going to do that with only one manufacturing partner that's possibly paying them for the privilege of rebadging their player, or if they're going to have manufacturing problems with reported shortages of blue laser diodes.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Ken,

thanks for your continued input on the audio issue.

I do like the idea of "streaming together" audio signals for the types of applications that you suggest. Though I still feel that any player that can't at least "downfold" high-res DD and DTS for SPDIF output to legacy decoders is a waste of money...I'd rather wait a few months for a player that can.


As for your thoughts on Toshiba's pricing strategy...none of us can know for certain. But it seems highly unlikely that Toshiba can do everything that they need to do to make an HD DVD player and price it just a few hundred higher than low-priced DVD players and not be under-pricing to make it work. I mean, even if HD DVD uses the same physical "platter" of DVD, the new decoding engines, lasers, and complexity of new copy protection schemes requires a bit of overhead for the first launched set of products. And that notion of Toshiba pricing their players below cost to get try to secure an edge in the market isn't my opinion or the Blu-ray camp's opinion alone...that's pretty much what everyone is saying except Toshiba.

(no one is pretending that Sony won't be underpricing their PS3 to reach their suggested retail price points either.)

 

[Ed St. Clair]

No, Boulet David. ;-)

I like the way 'someone' (I will not name names at this time, however great job of defending how you wish to spend your money to your critics) who KNOWS the limitions of HD-DVD is still going to buy into it!
Just think of all the people who DO NOT know of all the limitions of the first gen HD-DVD players, will buy into it!
Yikes.

 

[Rob_Walton]

The RCA is just a re-badged Toshiba, so there's only really one player available at launch, disguised to look like three (including the slightly more expensive Toshiba). The BestBuy in-store-computer offer of $340 for the Tosh HD-A1 was a mistake, which has now been corrected, so I'm not clear where you get the dealer cost from?

 

[Ken_F]

Rob,

The components available for use in these devices are so limited right now (just 1 rom drive available for each, with a second coming soon, and two decoder choices) that all early boxes are going to be one of two basic designs, aside from differences in chassis, firmware/software, and possibly DACs (only relevant for those using analog outputs). Neither the software nor the chassis on the Toshiba and RCA units will be the same.

When I made a few calls asking about my cancellation, the $314 price was said to be their cost, not the customer's.