Is the “Middle Class” disappearing in America? (1 Viewer)

[Jeff Gatie]

Please refrain from posting inaccurate statements. The "tax breaks for the rich" of the last few years have generated record tax revenues, far beyond those of previous tax raises (similar to every tax break in the past, if given time for the economy to adjust).

Given the fact these tax breaks have resulted in a stimulated economy which has been documented time and time again to generate record revenue streams, how do you justify calling these "tax breaks" a "cutting back on programs that help the poor"?

Is it really helping the poor by punishing the rich, if the poor may receive no extra help due to the resultant reduced revenue stream?

 

[RobertR]

That goes back to the issue I addressed earlier. Do some people really want the poor to be better off, or are they really motivated by the fact that they despise the idea of others making so much more than others?

 

[Buzz Foster]

The higher price is the number of employed who are on the welfare rolls because their jobs do not pay enough, or have enough benefits for them to support themselves or their families.

Wal~Mart actively fights labor organization, going so far as to close a store in Quebec, rather than deal with a union. They are pushing their employees to part time to reduce what meager benefits they do pay, and capping salaries for store managers. They demand tax breaks from cities when they want to move in, and then they hand out welfare forms to new employees.

You may not pay at the store, but you will pay. I'd rather pay more on the shelf for employees to have living wages and benefits, than have my tax monies spent on making up the difference. And no, I am no naive enough to think that Wal~Mart being a responsible corporate citizen would mean an actual lowering of my taxes, but maybe not having to pay for their employees' health care would mean potholes fixed in a timely manner, or maybe an improvement to local parks and facilities.

And the idea that they need to behave in such a manner to survive is insane. Wal~Mart is the biggest retailer in America, but recently, Costco has been cleaning Sam's Club's clock. Their employees are better paid, have benefits, and Costco will not knowingly buy sweatshop labour goods. (If they do so inadvertently and find out about it, they cancel the contract with that supplier.) Costco CEO Jim Senegal voluntarily caps his salary. Quite the contrast to the Wal~Mart heiress jetting around the world while paying her Stanford dorm mate to do her work. It would seem that Costco's model demonstrates that quality goods can be sold for a good price, and workers well compensated (and unionized if they wish), so long as CEO's aren't sucking the company dry.

 

[RobertR]

If Costco really is this wonderful company that’s also “cleaning the clock” of the Walmart company, then what are you complaining about? The market is making its judgement. Shop at Costco and be happy about the situation you just described.

 

[MarkHastings]

Too bad they dupe their customers into paying a fee to shop there :rolleyes

Remember when we used to pay credit card companies to use their cards too? I thought those days were over???

 

[drobbins]

Parent(s) kick you out of the house because you are 18 and no longer get welfare to support you. If you are a single female with no kids, you have to work for a living. Have a kid and then welfare steps in and provides for you and the kid. Need a raise? Have another. Not a life of luxury, but a roof, cloths & food anyway. I am not saying this as a blanket statement, but it does happen.

I believe the USA should still be a free country. Every law that is passed, for what ever reason, erodes away our freedoms. Companies should be free to pay what they want. If the workers don't like it, we are free to refuse to work until we get paid what we want. Or both parties find a middle ground that is beneficial to both. This happened in our past and unions started. Unions in general have out grown their usefulness and have become just another tax. If things get bad again, I am sure they will grow again.

All jobs can not be out sourced to other countries. No one here would have any income to purchase anything. It is beneficial for corporations to keep the job market here for their own sake. Also remember that there are over 1 billion people in China that need food, clothing, etc. and are happy to work for their current wages. Like us, I am sure they would like more too.
There has been and always will be both rich and poor people. Outside of extreme poverty or wealth, being poor or rich is a matter of perspective. The middle class is what is left. Look around the USA I see our "middle class" doing fine

 

[Chris Lockwood]

> The poor kid growing up in the projects has a much, much, much harder time getting into college, saving money, getting a (good) job, etc., than the rich kid growing up in the suburbs.

But it's just as easy for them to avoid getting pregnant (or getting someone pregnant) and making their situation worse.

Why do people who can't support themselves have kids? Why do we act like the kids just appear by magic?


> you presume corporations are the only source of employment or wealth. Small businesses, with fewer than 100 employees, represent 98 percent of all businesses and create a third of all jobs.

A lot of those small businesses are corporations, too.

 

[nolesrule]

I missed reading that before. 98% of all businesses account for 1/3 of the jobs? That's actually quite frightening. That means that only 2% of all businesses and the governments account for 2/3 of all jobs.

 

[Buzz Foster]

I do. I also go out of my way to shop at businesses other than Wal~Mart, despite their presence in my neighborhood, and the fact that I will pay more elsewhere.

 

[Buzz Foster]

If I had a magic wand to eliminate the problem, I would. But what is the solution? Cut governmet help for children (the main recipients of the programs described)? There may be people in other low-wage jobs getting government assistance, but for the country's largest retailer to be paying wages, by intent, that are below the maximum level to qualify for government assistance is sickening to me. That they would hand out forms to new employees angers me as a taxpayer.

It isn't just about adding up columns A and B to me, it is about what is right and what is wrong. My feeling is that Wal~Mart does a great deal that is wrong, but uses its low prices and some great advertising to convince people it isn't. And to a great extent, shoppers convince themselves of the same.

 

[Dome Vongvises]

I've given this some thought for a while now, and I think the greatest challenge facing anybody is "breaking the cycle".

There are too many to number here, but think of some the success stories in professional sports. What do some of those stories have in common? Parents/guardians who were willing to sacrifice for their children. The fact of the matter is being poor is hard, and not only are your opportunities limited (as opposed to non-existent as some people would like you to believe), your margin of error is much larger.

Some people choose not to take those opportunities. To those that do even find that the benefits are not immediate to themselves. It's the children that end up reaping the rewards of the hard labor. How many people are willing to do that? Not a whole lot, and this attitude is prevalent across all wage groups.

It's not always the cards you've been dealt, but it's how you play them that matters even more.

 

[Chu Gai]

WalMart doesn't pay enough to support families because the majority of positions in the store are what I'd consider entry level posisitions that don't require much in the way of skills. Yes, there are adults with families working those jobs but there's also high school kids. It's a place to get your feet wet unless you get into some kind of supervisory or management positions. Realistically, how much is an unskilled position that doesn't require even the completion of high school worth? One thing that Jana and others don't do is ask the question "Before WalMart, what were these people doing?" It's not like WalMart or any new business that opens up has problems attracting applicants.

Yes, WalMart has a non-union policy and their position on this was known from the get-go. Employees are working part time because there's no shortage of employees who want to work there, even with the relatively low unemployment rate. So is it better to be working full time and have the other person not working or is it better the other way around? What new business doesn't look for tax breaks or incentives even if they're paying their employees top dollar? Watch in the next few years as companies that used to be in California relocate to the midwest because the taxes are throttling them. Silicon Valley will be transformed into the Silicon Plains.

WalMart and Costco don't target the same customers so I'd expect there to be differences in a number of areas. Both have also been criticized for putting smaller merchants out of business, environmental impacts, cutting tax revenues because of subsidies, and so forth. Both are also comparatively generous corporations with respect to giving cash - approximately 1% of their income each. I don't know what Costco's total donations are but according to Forbes, WalMart gave out almost $200 million cash in '04 making it America's most generous corporation based on a cash basis. Both companies do though perform cost benefit analysis with respect to what makes sense for them in order to maximize things like profits. Both companies would be expected to come to different solution sets and then use their public relations departments to highlight their respective strengths. Yes, Senegal caps his salary but according to your link Buzz, his stocks are worth hundreds of millions. All that's been done is his total compensation has been restructured to make the face look benevolent. What does Mayor Bloomberg of NYC get for a salary? $1? But he's worth billions. I don't know where you get the information that Costco is cleaning Sam's Club's clock. There's a variety of information provided at http://reclaimdemocracy.org/articles...s_walmart.html but nothing of much signficance when it comes to looking at Sam's Club. IMO, until we can get some relevent information from Sam's, the comparison with WalMart is interesting but it's two different businesses. It is notable though that some of the critics of WalMart also happen to have stock holdings in the company.

 

[Jacinto]

Why do we all pretend that birth control is magic? Two of my four were conceived while trying not to (one pill, one condom), so what would you suggest? Government issued chastity belts for those under a certain income level -- only to be removed once they're successful enough? Are we going to legislate rights to be sexually active based on class? Mandated abortions for households making under $20k? The fact is, every time you have sex, you are risking creating a child, regardless of the "protections" you use. Safe sex is a myth, so stop acting as though if only those poor people with no health insurance would pony up for birth control pills, or would fork over money for some other form of birth control, society's problems would be solved. Kids happen because people of all social classes like sex. Those who intentionally have children to exploit the system represent a very small percentage.

 

[MarkHastings]

If you can't even afford birth control, then why are you risking the costs involved with having a child??? That's idiotic!!!

 

[Chu Gai]

Other forms of sexual gratification suggest themselves.

 

[KevinGress]

I think you succinctly nailed the crux of the problem. To escape poverty, one needs to realize that there's more out there, and be willing to work for it.

The question then becomes who's best to show these people there are more out there, and how to help those willing to strive for it?

 

[Holadem]

I really want to stay out of this thread, but I have to give a big rolleyesto this statement. There are many on your side of the isle (wrt to social issues) who, while I may not agree with them on the solution, realize that the problem is far more complex than such trite, artless and frankly contemptuous statements.

Dome, very well said wrt to "Breaking the cycle". How do you do it?

Chu, your inlaws, contraly to your past allusions sound like great people. But do tell, how many foster kids do you figure are lucky enough to land in such a home?

--
H

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Chu, is there any worldwide crisis that is not solved by your "Unlimited Hummers" strategy?

 

[MarkHastings]

Ah yes, the old "Blame everyone else instead of taking responsibility" thought process. And we wonder why the problem doesn't go away.

 

[Chu Gai]

In my own little subset of the human experience, I've seen kids who shouldn't have make it, make it (my earlier anecdote), and others who seemed to have pretty close to the same extended family support (with actual 2 parent families with incomes that weren't shabby) just outright screw it up. I don't know what happened but my nephews and nieces who had kids while they themselves were kids and passed on the education and didn't stick with it, are having a tough time. Real tough.

Here's a really ridiculous story to illustrate the mindset of one whose name is Anthony. He's the child of my wife's aunt's daughter. I was at a birthday party this summer and was having a beer outside on the deck. Anthony, who is presently living with a girl and has a kid with her, was bitching to someone. He was saying how he's got to go back to Florida because his ex (not married) is suing him for back and continuing child support. Anthony was complaining that he can't afford to pay child support and take care of his significant other and the new kid. His major thesis was that he should've married a girl from PR because even if he broke up with her and there was a kid she wouldn't be asking him for money for the baby.

Bill Cosby, I think has it right when it comes to stop blaming things and looking for rationalizations and instead just do what it takes to succeed and assume accountability. His message transcends color and everything else.