I don't see why anybody is suppourting Dual-y Disc! (1 Viewer)

[AricB]

I believe Larry is right, i looked at the back and some of the new ones were labeled advanced surround and some were not, i think usher was, I'm not a fan so i was just looking to see what was being offered, i could be mistaking.

 

[Rachael B]

Isn't "advanced surround sound" a rather useless, generic term?

 

[Larry Geller]

Well, since the context here is that it tells us that it is not DTS or Dolby Digital, but is DVD-A at SOME sampling rate (be it 48/24, 96.24, whatever), it is VERY useful. You just hate everything about Dual-Disc so much that you're going to pick on anything.

 

[John Kotches]

To expound on Larry's point:

Advanced Resolution indicates a sampling rate or depth > CDs 16/44.1.

For some reason everyone tends to overlook the importance of sampling depth in PCM -- which governs the audibility of noise in recordings that are given signal processing. The more signal processing in the chain, the more the possibility that noise will be heard. In fact, to make sure that noise doesn't cross the threshold of audibility, you have to maintain a 21 or 22-bit (I don't recall which) level to miss the 1K-4K region that our ears are most sensitive to.

So by going to a 24-bit sampling depth, we then banish noise as being a factor even with signal processing. As an FYI, bass management is a form of signal processing so that includes this function in receivers/processors/DVD players.

Cheers,

 

[Rich Malloy]

Larry, you have to admit, there's good reason to despise dual-disc. If not for the compatibility problems, if not for the sound quality issues, if not for the space limitations that will surely lead to the editing of one or more of our personal sacred cows, then only because it's a decided step backwards from DVD-A and SACD.

 

[Larry Geller]

Well, since it seems to be the only way we're going to get ANY hi-rez stuff, I welcome it (and I HAVE had compatibility problems--my American Beauty DD won't play the CD side on my SACD changer--I don't care--all I want is the DVD-A side anyway--the rest is gravy). Let's not lose sight of the big picture here--hi-rez any way we can get it!

 

[Rachael B]

Larry, I'd argue that the majority of hi-rez audio has not been properly labeled, any and all fur-mats. The FBI Warnings have all been very large and clear though!

 

[Rachael B]

Oh, Larry! Do you accept other products that are defective? Would you buy writing paper with one side you couldn't write on because it was defective, and not return it?

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I don't think this is fair to Sony. You can't blame them for dropping the hirez component since they are backing Super Audio. If DualDisc does well enough with the masses, they may change their tune in the future. But it may hurt SACD hardware and software sales to offer DualDisc hirez now.

 

[Kris Deering]

Sony is backing SA-CD???? This is news to me. Can you point me in the direction of their support?? Other then the miniscule amount of players they are putting out of course. I noticed that Universal doesn't seem to be interested in SA-CD lately after Elton. Nothing on the coming soon anymore. But they have announced a new DVD-A title that will be a 2 disc solution rather then DualDisc, Beck's new one.

Sorry Rachel, I am with Larry as well. I could give two squirts of piss about the CD side of DualDisc. To me it is a throw in. I want the advanced resolution audio and M/C mixes. And like it or not the DVD side IS COMPLETELY COMPLIANT WITH THE DVD SPEC. So no hardware issues there at all.

 

[Justin Lane]

I am no longer a Dual Disc virgin.

Picked up Bowie's "Reality" album today at Best Buy for $13.99. Cd Player played fine in my truck's in dash CD player, Panasonic DVD Player and Sony ES CD Player. It is 100% compatible with my playback chain.

Since this album is from Sony, as noted earlier it only has a Dolby Digital 5.1 track. Still, this track sounded great to my ears (though I never picked this up on SA-CD for comparison's sake). It also has Bowie's Reality film included which is pretty neat.

Best Buy appears to no longer be re-stocking their DVD-A and Sack-Dee sections once titles are sold, however they are stocking multiple copies (10 or more for the more popular titles) of Dual Discs for all the titles that came out this week in the regular CD bins. This format may very well catch on, or at least catch on better than the two earlier offerings.

J

 

[Kevin C Brown]

The DVD *side* may be 100% compliant with DVD-V (or -A) specs, but the disc itself is still heavier than a normal DVD and still might cause short term or long term problems in players.

 

[Rachael B]

Good point Kevin! Muy excellente!

If Dual-y Disc-o, nice touch Ken , was fully compliant with the formats it is poised to replace, that
would be one thing. However, it's not and so it's something completely different. I've seen Laserdisc players shake like a washing machine on spin cycle from a disc that was bad, either the centre hole was off, the pits off centre, or maybe it was just heavier on one side...? Exact defect uknown... Anyway, this scenario on a smaller scale is all too possible with the mutant-CD side particulary. It's also very possible on the DVD side because the transport is made for a lighter disc.

Myslf, I'm not desperate enough for somethin' to listen to that I'll accept an inferior, defective format to get some tunes. I know something better will come along in due time. Patience is most certainly a virtue.

Shoddy = Dual-y Disc-o,,,go back to the drawing board mu-sick kompanies!

 

[Justin Lane]

Worrying about the weight of the discs is like worrying about getting struck by a meteor. The force exherted by your hand putting the disc into the player's tray is greater than the force exherted by the disc. Though electronics are not made of the greatest parts these days, the tolerance on the internals are not so small that a miniscule amount of extra weight will cause the player to self distruct.

This Dual-y Disc fear mongering is getting out of hand. It is almost time to give homeland security a call.

J

 

[John Kotches]

When all else fails, some empirical data does some nice work.

The scale in use only provides accuracy to 5/1000ths of a pound, so the least the DVD-18 could weigh is .0397 pounds and the most it could weigh is .0402 pounds. The DualDisc range is .0447 and .0452 pounds.

Assuming a worst case scenario, the Dual Disc is ~14% heavier than a DVD-18. In a best case scenario, the differential is about 11%.

The point is simple, a properly engineered transport is not going to have an issue with this weight variance.

Cheers,

 

[PaulT]

I don't believe it is fear mongering if someone will not purchase or put a DD in their machine because the manufacturer refuses to honor the warranty if they do.

Although it is a different issue (speed rather than weight, but could be proportionally related), perhaps you could check around the net for photos or media files of exploding CD-R's because the burners are now starting to reach max speeds. Can you tell me what effect a 11-14% increase in weight does to DVD player drive parts based on the speed of the disc?

Take whatever you wish up with Homeland Security - some of us don't live there

 

[John Kotches]

Paul,

So tell me this, how does the manufacturer know that you've played a DualDisc in the player should it fail in service? Unless the disc becomes jammed in the player, they would never know. Also, I'm pretty sure that the manufacturer would lose in court if they failed to honor their warranty over a breakdown that was caused by a DualDdisc.

Edit, added this:
I've used DualDiscs in at least 15 different players, including slot loading single disc and 6-disc changers with no problems at all.
end edit

Properly engineered, a drive should have at least a 25% weight tolerance. Any conservative engineer will have 50% or more as a weight tolerance.

Of more concern are discs that aren't properly centered, as the eccentricity is noticable on any disc in my laptop. This is true of DVD-Video, CD, SA-CD and DualDisc, and it seems to be getting worse instead of better.

Cheers,

 

[Phil A]

I agree Paul and that was the point I made at the beginning of the thread. Models change every year. The software makers want to make money and have no vested interest to do extensive testing under those conditions vs. potential profit margins. The hardware manufacturers just want to make sure they don't get stuck with warranty costs. Many transports are not great designs in the 1st place. Manufacturers that make a full range of equipment - e.g. amps, receivers, dvd players, etc., often have a shorter warranty period on those items with transports. Transports have moving parts that can wear out with more use. With modern assembly lines it is also possible to have identical models of a given transport that are not aligned 100% alike. The fact that a board on a receiver may be a small fraction in a different spot inside the case vs. an identical model may not mean that much.

Bottom line is that no one can really predict what DualDisc will or won't do to their machines vs. other software over time. They may do nothing to certain machines and shorten the lives of others. I personally see no need to find out what it may do to my equipment as I have plenty of other software.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

John,

You can tell its a problem for the mfrs just by reading the dozen or so mfr warnings issued via press releases.

If it works so well, why would they have to issue the press releases?

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Resentment from the manufacturers for not being involved with the format. "How dare they come out with a 'new' format that can be played in my players without involving ME!" Now they can come out with special 'DualDisc approved' players for which they can charge a premium.

For years I had misguided 'audiophile' friends who would play discs with treatments such as 'sound rings' and CD Mats...for thousands of hours, with no effect to their transport! This stuff will make a disc WAY more out of spec than a DualDisc is! Funny how the manufacturers haven't issued any press releases...

People who told us to shut up and not worry about nasty flaking, cracking Crest SACDs in our transports are all of a sudden real worried about DualDiscs. I smell a whole bunch of bitter sour grapes over a new format getting traction but daring to not be SACD.