Hybrid Stones and Police discs REPLACED by CD only in the UK.... (1 Viewer)

[Justin Lane]

I suspect that the price differential is coming down quickly between SACD and redbook replication.

Talking with friends in the industry, I have yet to hear that this is the case. Lee, do you have a source for up to date Hybrid pressing pricing for comparison to redbook? Just curious, as the situation may have changed slightly.

J

 

[Michael_T]

Regardless of what the reasons are for proceeding this way in Europe (and maybe in the future in The States), how can this be good for SACD in general.

Let's say the Stones hybrids are limited to the initial digipak run, and then they revert to redbook CD only... how does this help push the format in the future. What about those people that may pick up SACD capable players in the next few years (if the format survives that long and/or permeates the mainstream), how will they be able to get The Stones on SACD? What about those of us who bought the Stones SACDs (I purchased all of them).. let's say we find a disc that proves defective (for whatever reason) in the future, how will we be able to replace the bad copy in the years to come.

Maybe I am missing something here, but this just doesn't seem to be the best way to market this fledgling format (SACD).

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Good point, except that by replacing or supplementing a Hybrid with a redbook only title, the number of Hybrids pressed and sold decreases, and the costs of pressing Hybrids remain the same or could even increase as Hybrid volume decreases.

They are supposedly subbing SACD discs with redbook; there is no evidence of redbooks included separately. Steve Hoffman's point was that replicating redbook is still less expensive.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

I think it is highly unlikely given the tremendous support that Allen Klein has given in recent statements at press events for Super Audio. Still buy those discs you want as it will help the format.

Doesn't Klein own ABKCO(US) and ABKCO(UK)? If he wants a larger profit margin in the UK, wouldn't he want it here as well?

 

[Lee Scoggins]

If he wants a larger profit margin in the UK, wouldn't he want it here as well?

How do you know this is related directly to profits?

I have seen no evidence it is due to profit taking, nor have I seen any conclusive evidence it is true.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

How do you know this is related directly to profits?

Common sense. Steve Hoffman has it too ("I'm sure it's the cheap manufacturing cost of a CD").

There is always capacity somewhere, as long as you are willing to pay a market price for it.

ABKCO will have higher profit margins on the next batch, beyond a doubt. Not only will they be saving on manufacturing cost, they'll also forgo the extra high-res royalty.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

There is always capacity somewhere, as long as you are willing to pay a market price for it.

Oversimplification. Capacity shortages in the capitalist economy exist from time to time, and these often lead to more costs (higher market price) but there can be a substantial lag until new production lines are started and capacity returns. This is particularly true of new products.

 

[Phil A]

I'm not sure what the overseas situation is, but Amazon UK still has the hybrids listed on their website such as the below:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...397079-8855058

If one goes to the bottom description it is listed as being a hybrid.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Lee,

The day I am indicted for having common sense is a day that I am proud to be singled out.

You are 'speculating' that ABKCO(US) will have a different policy than ABKCO(UK), while providing zero evidence.

You are 'speculating' that production costs of SACD are approaching CD, while providing zero evidence.

Even if you are producing a small album, and even if you are inquiring into SACD production costs, you won't have the real numbers that big labels have. The volume that they deal with (in addition to vertical integration and strategic relationships) allow for unpublished replication rates to be negotiated.

The fact is that a dual-layered process is more complex, and the greater density of the data requires a cleaner process and tighter materials specifications. SACD will never be as cheap as CD until their volume exceeds that of CD. You also neglect to mention the additional SACD royalty. Given the same volume and packaging requirements, for the forseeable future it will always be cheaper to release an album on CD than on hybrid.

Oversimplification.

Sure, but accurate. ABKCO is not Sony (owning both artists and manufacturing), so they don't have to worry about juggling production to meet the needs of other artists. They can buy capacity if they want it. Lower production costs and lower royalties means more margin. ABKCO will make more money on the new redbook-only releases. The subsidy is over and ABKCO wants to make the most money they can. It is apparent to just about everybody with common sense.

 

[John Kotches]

Lee,

How is it, on one hand you can provide speculation from Steve Hoffman's web site as validation in some threads, but refute it as validation in others.

This seems to be a double standard.

Can you clarify this a little?

Regards,

 

[Lee Scoggins]

The subsidy is over and ABKCO wants to make the most money they can.

There is no evidence that either (1) the subsidy is over or (2) that it affects this observance in the U.K. at all.

The main point of the thread was that hybrids have stopped being issued, but we have Amazon still selling them and a report from Berlin that plenty of digipak hybrids are around. Justin should have changed the thread title to include "Some have reported that..."

You have not provided any evidence that this thread is based on any factual event.

 

[Al B. C]

Well here's a factual event....

It appears that some (not all) Best Buy stores in Canada have stopped ordering SACD's.

Read it at the sometimes valid Steve Hoffman site.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...threadid=20885

And I'm not happy that some of these events are happening. I like my SACD's as well as my DVD-A's.

 

[BrianB]

I suspect that the price differential is coming down quickly between SACD and redbook replication.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Lee, here are your own quotes:

There is no evidence that either (1) the subsidy is over

If ABKCO is managing to get Sony to keep paying them an SACD subsidy to press redbook-only discs, they are better negotiators than I am.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

It appears that some (not all) Best Buy stores in Canada have stopped ordering SACD's.

That is a suspect thread as well Al; look at Gary's comments that his Best Buyt has plenty of discs.

I am getting tired of all the web chatter when there is nothing more than one person's observance to base it on.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Lee:

and it is very clear you are just picking a fight here.

Not hardly.

 

[Justin Lane]

That clearly suggests that I believe that the two are priced the same, when in fact as an engineer I would know quite well the extra costs of SACDs. It was me that first told the HTF that SACD royaltees were $0.05 and DVDA royaltees were $0.40 per disc, after all.

Of course, they are very different due to different royalties, layers, etc.

I remember you posting something along the lines of this, but never supporting these claims with factual data (which may or may not be available). I would imagine royalties for DVD-A discs would be a bit higher however, as most discs contain DD and DTS, enabling backwards surround sound compatibility with every DVD player, and video content which requires additional royalty fees. Of course leaving off certain features (DTS, Video) would lower the royalty fees so using a flat number for DVD-A is not a realistic indicator, and actually quite erroneous and misleading.

If you are acknowleding that the content provided on both discs is greatly different, why even bring it up as a point of comparison? This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, and belongs elsewhere.

J

 

[Phil A]

According to this post (not me, I have no means of verifying it), the regular CDs have been out in the UK the same day as the hybrids:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hi...es/149468.html

At the time of release of the Stones, I heard reports that due to ltd. hybrid capacity, other hybrids were delayed. I could be just as simple as that capacity is being geared up for Dylan and other discs and that there may be places where the hybrids are sold out (since perhaps educated people with a choice between the 2 would presumably purchase the hybrid?). Perhaps they are to be pressed again when more capacity becomes available or perhaps the record co. is just waiting and seeing how the sales of the regular CDs go vs. what sold previously to see if it is worth it to them.

Every news story that someone posts need not turn into personal attacks or a DVD-A vs. SACD thread. Time will tell what the facts are and perhaps someone will just contact Abcko in the UK and get it straight from the horses mouth.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

At the time of release of the Stones, I heard reports that due to ltd. hybrid capacity, other hybrids were delayed. I could be just as simple as that capacity is being geared up for Dylan and other discs and that there may be places where the hybrids are sold out (since perhaps educated people with a choice between the 2 would presumably purchase the hybrid?). Perhaps they are to be pressed again when more capacity becomes available or perhaps the record co. is just waiting and seeing how the sales of the regular CDs go vs. what sold previously to see if it is worth it to them.

Phil,

Any of those scenarios are certainly possible (though I'm sure if ABKCO really wanted more hybrids and were willing to pay a market price out of their own pocket, there is probably a plant somewhere that will press them, even if it was in Japan).

The tough thing will be when new SACD buyers with new hardware find out that the Stones are out of print. Sellers will have a good time at Ebay.UK.

It is common knowledge or generally accepted that the DSotM and Stones discs were subsidized. Is there a major-artist, major-label title that is single-inventory and was not subsidized?

 

[Jack Briggs]

Lee, Michael: May I suggest that the two of you put each other on your "ignore" list? Let's try to pull back a bit, please. JB