HTF Car of the Week (12/26): 2004 Audi S4 (1 Viewer)

[Scott L]

They don't make em like they used to
People have gotten these 1987 turboed beauties to 7sec @ 173mph in the 1/4 mile. (link) Stock their performance times are similar to a modern Z06 Vette, I don't think it's turbo is a crutch here.

 

[Josh Lowe]

Also, I'll take a naturally aspirated engine over a turbo any day of the week. Turbo charging is merely a crutch and a cheap way to get more power.

I'm not trying to be rude, but I think you might want to stick to home theater stuff and not cars as it's obvious by this statement you have a general lack of understanding about them.

Turbocharging is one of the most efficient and reliable methods to add power to any motor. Even a motor that was never designed with a turbo application in mind can benefit from one if it's a well designed system.

 

[Todd Hochard]

Stock their performance times are similar to a modern Z06 Vette

If one sec and 10mph in the quarter slower than the Z06 is "similar," then OK. Plus, they're a little bit scary at speed, and in the corners. Typical '80s GM handling. I'd still take one.
The best thing about the GNs was not the GNX, but the ease of tuning, and how BULLETPROOF that 3.8 really turned out to be. I've spoken to a guy out at the track that has been bringing his '87 GN there for 10+ years, running 30# of boost on a stock motor with over 120K miles on it. I have a friend with a GN that's done the same.
Turbos are nice, but over the years, have not proven exceedingly reliable (with a few exceptions). They are coming around, though. I still like my powerplants naturally aspirated.
Todd

 

[Chuck C]

Here's a Q: If the turbo charger malfunctions/dies, will the car still work, just with less power?

 

[Justin Doring]

"I'm not trying to be rude, but I think you might want to stick to home theater stuff and not cars as it's obvious by this statement you have a general lack of understanding about them."

Josh: First, you are indeed being rude. Second, your condescending attitude, while amusing to me, is not necessarily welcome. Third, you presume far too much. Exactly what don't I know anything about? Cars? Turbocharging? Home Theater? And why is this? Is this because I disagree with you? Well Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, BMW, etc. would all seem to support me.

"Turbocharging is one of the most efficient and reliable methods to add power to any motor. Even a motor that was never designed with a turbo application in mind can benefit from one if it's a well designed system."

It seems you've proven my point for me. It's cheap and easy to turbocharge an engine, any engine, to get more power instead of actually spending time and money to properly engineer a powerful engine, and I'm not talking about displacement. High horsepower and torque figures can be obtained from relatively small displacement engines. For example, Honda gets 240 hp out of their 2.0 I4 in the S2000, and it's easily good for more.

I see I've hit a nerve with the turbocharing gang, which is understandable, as there are many turbocharging fans, as it is a cheap and easy way to get lots of power out of what is essentially a modest engine. I just happen to prefer my engines to be naturally aspirated.

 

[Chuck C]

Let's keep it clean!

 

[Cam S]

Well Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, BMW, etc. would all seem to support me.

Sorry, but the Ferrari F40 has twin turbochargers, and I would have to say they got it right, as it's an incredible supercar. How old is it now, like 10 years?

 

[Josh Lowe]

Here's a Q: If the turbo charger malfunctions/dies, will the car still work, just with less power?

In most cases yes but I'm sure there are exceptions. But people have had turbochargers fail on cars and are able to pit them if on a track or get them to their destinations without damage. The car will probably run poorly under heavy acceleration but it'll still run safely.

 

[CharlesD]

...and the Ferrari 288 GTO. Hmm in the mid 80s BMW produced the most powerful F-1 motor ever.. aprox. 1500 bhp (in qualifying trim) from a 1.5 liter 4 cyl (and a used stock block at that). It was turbo-charged natch. 911 turbo anyone? For my money the best sports car available.

You can increace power through enginering and increasing the revs (Honda S-2000), turbo charging or through brute force large displacement. A Subaru WRX STi makes 280 hp/275 lbs-ft from a 2.0 4-cyl that red-lines at 8,000 rpm. Is that your idea of a cheap and easy crutch that did not require any engineering skill to develop?

 

[Philip_G]

I just happen to prefer my engines to be naturally aspirated.

fly a N/A single engine airplane over some mountains, then tell me turbos aren't worthwhile. Or, go drive your car around denver and see how slooooow it is
they have their uses. You can't tell me it's an engineering marvel to simply increase the displacement as much as you can in order to make HP.

 

[Josh Lowe]

Quote:

Great, Honda got 240hp out of a 2 liter engine. And the result is a torqueless wonder that is about as fun to drive around as a sewing machine. Is the mission to win races or is it to divide HP by metric displacement and masturbate to the result? Because that's all that HP/liter numbers are good for.
I don't really care what the method is if the end result is good. One of my favorite cars is the Dodge Viper, a car that epitomizes big displacement. But to take a condescending, dismissive tone toward one particular method of getting the job done (especially one so highly effective and not nearly as easy as you'd pretend it is) is just plain ignorant, and you've been called on it by someone who happens to know a little bit about the subject.
And for the record, my comment was "if the kit is well-designed." Take a look sometime into what's involved in creating a "well designed" turbo setup for a given application. How much do you know about thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, designing engines, about compressor maps, intercoolers, picking the right turbo housings with the right trim impellers for a given application, etc? I barely know a thing about it and it's something I've been very interested in for years. Most people I know who do that stuff for a living have lots of degrees and abbreviations like "M.E." at the end of their signatures.. But hey, it's easy, right?

 

[Cam S]

Besides Formula 1 (which may re-introduce forced induction in 2007), the only other major racing series that doesn't allow turbocharging would be NASCAR.. and I don't think any comment is needed on the lack of sophistication in NASCAR.

The IRL doesn't allow turbo charging either, wether or not they are a "Major racing series" is reserved for debate in another thread.

 

[Todd Hochard]

Yikes! The magazine-racing tough guys are getting out of hand here.
FI isn't nearly as difficult as you'd make it sound. Build a strong motor, with a tough bottom end, and make sure you can feed enough fuel for the power you'd like. It's not magic. All it takes is money and time. I guarantee, if someone would provide me with the funds, that I could build a streetable twin-turbo 350 for my '80Z making over 700hp below 6500rpm, and I could do it myself, in my home garage. Guaranteed. I have a parts list in my head. I take Paypal.
Todd

 

[Justin Doring]

Josh, The condescention began the second you posted, "I'm not trying to be rude, but I think you might want to stick to home theater stuff and not cars as it's obvious by this statement you have a general lack of understanding about them." And you continue it with, "you started making blanket generalizations borne from ignorance in your dismissve (and erroneous) comments about turbocharging."

I was merely stating my opinion about turbocharging, and I have absolutely no problem with those who disagree, but to personally attack me claiming I know nothing is simply bad form and only reveals your insecurities.

"Despite two successors in the F50 and the Enzo it's still probably regarded as the greatest modern vehicle produced by Ferrari." So the turbocharged F40 is a better automobile than the naturally aspirated F50 and the Enzo? You'll have a difficult time proving that. Yes, the F40 was an excellent automobile for its time, but Ferrari has since, dare I say, learned from their mistakes.

I will, however, agree with you that the Honda S2000 has no torque and that driving at 8000 rpms is not a pleasant experience.

 

[Josh Lowe]

The IRL doesn't allow turbo charging either, wether or not they are a "Major racing series" is reserved for debate in another thread.

They seem to be on the way as more and more teams jump ship from CART. Yet another "racing" series built around going in circles for 3 hours.

 

[Todd Hochard]

Could you mass produce it and make it 50 state legal?

Given the resources- sure. But so could any manufacturer today. It would be expensive, though.
FI isn't the impossibility you make it seem. Today's ECUs update so quickly, that was was difficult 5-7 years ago (e.g. real time knock sensing with quick enough response for rapid boost changes), is very easy today. I can get off-the-shelf stuff, like Electromotive's TEC3 to do for me. Throw together a well-built, correctly-sized combo, and away we go.
I just prefer not to deal with the hassles. Apparently, Audi didn't either, given the switch to the V8.

 

[CharlesD]

re: IRL

CART teams jumping to the IRL doesn't increase the stature of the IRL IMO. They are switching because the (generally older) team owners and/or the marketing departments of the sponsors are still enamored of the Indy 500, despite that race attracts the same attention of the average NASCAR race.

For me as long as it as an oval-only series in which they mandate minimum wing angles for the cars (creating an aerodynamic 'restrictor plate' effect) they could have Ferrari. Williams & McLaren with Schumacher and Juan "My Grandmother could drive an IRL car" Montoya race in it and it would still be a second rate series.

 

[Philip Hamm]

Back to page 1....
Josh Lowe, man that Audi is a friggin' abomination. I would ask the owner "If you want a souped up lowered gaudy wheeled skirted Civic/Accord why buy and Audi?". I like Matt DeVillier's a lot better. Or mine for that matter.

motorcycles have an agreement of sorts, mostly so the gvt didn't enforce a limit on them. Can't remember if it's HP or just top speed, I think top speed,

You're right, it is just top speed, at least from what I've read. And it's not "official policy", just an agreement.