Blu-ray Review HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Spartacus 50th Anniversary Edition (1 Viewer)

[Douglas Monce]

Originally Posted by smithb



And you have to be willing to live with the consequences. And the conseqiences in this case could be some films not coming out at all on BD at all.


This is really not all that different then the movie on demand "MOD" concept in that many have argued that if you accept this approach then we may me telling the studios we are willing to settle for DVD-R type releases with little to no cleanup at all. Yet without it the probablility is that many of these would never see the light of day, leaving just old VHS releases or nothing at all.


So in my case, I'm willing to permit "good enough" for a movie I really want because the vast majority of buyers aren't going to care and I don't believe being overly principled in this case will solve much.

I would rather have a good transfer, and no clean up, than what was done to Spartacus.


Doug

 

[smithb]

Originally Posted by Douglas Monce

I would rather have a good transfer, and no clean up, than what was done to Spartacus.


Doug

I think we all hope to get that some day. But for now that is not an option that is currently available (at least on BD).

 

[marsnkc]

Originally Posted by smithb



And you have to be willing to live with the consequences. And the conseqiences in this case could be some films not coming out at all on BD at all.


This is really not all that different then the movie on demand "MOD" concept in that many have argued that if you accept this approach then we may me telling the studios we are willing to settle for DVD-R type releases with little to no cleanup at all. Yet without it the probablility is that many of these would never see the light of day, leaving just old VHS releases or nothing at all.


So in my case, I'm willing to permit "good enough" for a movie I really want because the vast majority of buyers aren't going to care and I don't believe being overly principled in this case will solve much.

When movies on demand were introduced by Warner Brothers I jumped on that so fast my head spun. One of those is Steve McQueen's 'An Enemy of the People'. It cost me $20 plus tax and shipping, more than I'm willing to pay for most BDs!

The thing is, 'Enemy' was seen by only a handful of people outside of myself, McQueen and his grandmother. One of the five or six customers reviewing it on Amazon says it played for only a week in one theater in Philadelphia. Compare that to the number of people who've seen Spartacus since 1960, purchased the various video formats, and argued passionately about the merits of those transfers on forums and Amazon and you can appreciate why Warner offers 'Enemy' only on demand and 'as is' (though what I've gotten so far has been amazing, considering) and why Universal SHOULD offer their hugely popular, flagship title in the best possible (and nowadays achievable) transfer.

Originally Posted by smithb





Take a look at the initial DVD offerrings of the James Bond movies. They were pretty bad but eventually they were able to justify creating brand new HD transfers and the latest DVD and BD releases are excellent. Big business doesn't necessary like to take risks.

 

[smithb]

Andrew,


I appreciate your well thought out reply.


The reason why I think we might get a newly remastered release some day is because I honestly don't think the coprorate types in the studio's really have a clue as to what they are doing. Take "Pedator" for example, they get slammed for doing it perhaps the best way it should be done (granted without a completely new transfer), then release a new DNR'ed version in response and get slammed again. I believe they will do another Spartacus because they know it is a title that will sell. At some point they will luck into the right formula. So I don't really think a principled or complatency approach will mean a hill of beans because I really don't give them the credit to respond to one or the other.


Your argument that Spartacus does not fall into the category of needing to accept what we can get or into the MOD analogy is well stated. A generalization I used that probably doesn't fit this title.


Actually, I really wasn't comparing the Spartacus BD to the old James Bond titles in the way you are thinking. They really are apples and oranges in that one is BD and the other DVD, and the issues in the transfers are completely different in nature. My point was more that for the early Bond DVD's they took the easy way out and it was only much later that they tried to maximize the capability of the output format with a new master (at a substantial cost). I see the Spartacus as a short-cut to getting it out where as a new master might be struck later. But I don't know the costs associated with what they did do in processing compared to what a brand new master would cost.


In the end, I'm not trying to convince others to buy but just adding a different perspective. This thread started out more negative then I thought was warranted. And for those finding this thread in the future, I think multiple perspectives are helpful.


I'm obviously not as critical as the majority in this thread but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy film. I'd love to see a remastering of "Meet John Doe" but you know it will probably never happen. For the first 10 minutes I'm bothered by the lack of video quality, but after that I'm just enjoying a good film.

 

[Johnny Angell]

That was absolutely hilarious and typical of Ustinov. What a raconteur he was.

 

[smithb]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angell
That was absolutely hilarious and typical of Ustinov. What a raconteur he was.

Just curious, how does one go about saving that video. Do you need to use something like FireFox and a plugin to save it to a file, or is there another way.

 

[marsnkc]

Originally Posted by smithb



Just curious, how does one go about saving that video. Do you need to use something like FireFox and a plugin to save it to a file, or is there another way.

Sign up for the free version of Real Player and choose the 'save to Real Player' option (or something like that - it's been a while). If you already have an older version of RP, or missed the option, delete it and sign up again. After you've done that, hover your mouse (usually just beneath the top right line of a video frame) and a 'Save to RealPlayer' balloon will pop up. Click on this and it will save it to your video file. This is assuming that whoever posts the video hasn't embedded it with some copy protection.

 

[smithb]

Originally Posted by marsnkc
Sign up for the free version of Real Player and choose the 'save to Real Player' option (or something like that - it's been a while). If you already have an older version of RP, or missed the option, delete it and sign up again. After you've done that, hover your mouse (usually just beneath the top right line of a video frame) and a 'Save to RealPlayer' balloon will pop up. Click on this and it will save it to your video file. This is assuming that whoever posts the video hasn't embedded it with some copy protection.

Thanks, it is an interesting video to keep with the various other Spartacus extras.

 

[Andy_G]

Regarding the original Bond releases from ~2000: I own them all, and today they all look pretty bad. But at the time, I felt that they mostly looked great, especially compared to what came before. And remember, all (or almost all) of the 007 series got LETTERBOX VHS releases. So I think everyone was well-awware that there would be further releases in the future. Moreover, I think the special features on those discs have stood the test of time quite well.

 

[Kevin EK]

All of the 007 films were released in letterbox format on VHS. I owned all of them before the DVDs started coming out, and sold all the tapes once the "Ultimate" SD sets came out in 2006.

Also, I believe all of the special features from the earlier Bond DVDs were carried over to the "Ultimate" sets, which are then being carried over to the Blu-ray editions. Of course, we're still waiting for the MGM fur to stop flying to get to see the rest of the Bonds on Blu-ray. (You Only Live Twice, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Diamonds Are Forever, The Spy Who Loved Me, Octopussy, A View To A Kill, The Living Daylights, Goldeneye, Tomorrow Never Dies) I figure we won't see the other 9 until they make and release the next Daniel Craig Bond film, and then put that film out on Blu-ray. Hopefully, they'll be able to work the numbers out in the next year or two...

 

[marsnkc]

Originally Posted by Kevin EK (The initial pan-and-scanned VHS of 'Lawrence of Arabia' cost me $120...!!! Makes me weep to think of it).


Brad-

I just re-read your post where you first mention the James Bond Blu-rays. I don't know where I got the impression that you were comparing Spartacus favorably with those fabulous transfers. Another thing I got wrong was failing to add 'Blu-rays' to 'early Bonds'. These are what I was referring to, not the early DVDs. Sorry about that.

 

[AaronMK]

Quote:

And you have to be willing to live with the consequences. And the consequences in this case could be some films not coming out at all on BD at all.

When something is "released" in this kind of DNR job, I don't really consider it as having come out on Blu-ray anyway. If the "consequence" of not purchasing this "release" is some other films not being "released", than I really don't see how we are any worse off. In fact, if a studio is under the delusion that they have released a film on Blu-ray, they are less likely to actually release it "again".

 

[Robert Harris]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AaronMK

Quote:


When something is "released" in this kind of DNR job, I don't really consider it as having come out on Blu-ray anyway. If the "consequence" of not purchasing this "release" is some other films not being "released", than I really don't see how we are any worse off. In fact, if a studio is under the delusion that they have released a film on Blu-ray, they are less likely to actually release it "again".

I could not agree more.


Taking the chance of boring some readers, I'm going to re-re-repeat myself.


Blu-ray has nothing to do with quality, as HD had nothing to do with quality.


Both formats, red and blu, are nothing more than buckets holding digital information.


A poor scratched and damaged 16mm copy of Night of the Living Dead or His Girl Friday, mastered for public domain VHS in 1979, can be used to create Blu-ray discs. Doing so would create absolute garbage.


But both films would still be Blu-ray releases, and therefore perceived by some as high quality, the best achievable, or the best we're apt to get on the format.


My point is that there is no reason for many people to be buying Blu-ray players and software, when there are far less expensive alternatives.


One does not need Blu-ray, unless one is concerned about high levels of image and audio quality. Just because something is released in the format does not mean that it should be purchased.


Brembo brakes are generally considered to be better than run of the mill discs, but are hardly worth having fitted to one's Fit. You don't need them, just as many people really do not need Blu-ray.


There is nothing wrong with DVD, and many films will look superior on DVD than on Blu-ray, simply because the technology is far more accepting of problems.


Blu-ray does not denote quality or "good."


Blu-ray is merely a system for reproducing an image and / or audio, regardless of quality.


RAH

 

[warnerbro]

Amen! Well said! End of story.

 

[marsnkc]

What I'll never understand is why those who defend a bad transfer to BD (as loudly, by the way, and with as much 'hyperbole' - the catchphrase 'du jour' - as those 'anal' people who complain about one) can't accept the opinions of those whose very careers are in the film, video and related fields, especially those whose goal is to bring us the closest approximation of film to the home theater.


Why would I be as happy with a transfer that, in my ignorance of the possible, I thought was great, good, acceptable or 'less than optimal' - as one individual once put it - if I'm told repeatedly that the elements are now in place to achieve a superior result and what I paid good money for could be better? Don't I want full value for my limited, hard earned money? The same value that other, more enlightened and less cynical studios now routinely offer? Wouldn't I like to see the work of greatly talented people given it's due? The producers of Spartacus could have saved themselves a bundle if they'd gone the 8mm, black and white route, and filmed it in their back yards with themselves as DPs and camera operators. Given the same writer, director and actors, the dramatic result may have been the same but it sure wouldn't be the eye candy that they rightly thought would excite us. What you get in the 'high definition' versions of Spartacus is not that eye candy. Most definitely not what we saw in theaters.


As Mr. Harris put it in another post, all of the elements necessary for a stunning (my word - but in the context of the film's age etc.) result (assuming quality equipment and the right people are in place) are routinely available to studios and transfer houses, so there's no excuse any more for a 'less than optimal' result.


So Brad, your statement in post #63, 'At some point they will luck into the right formula' is no longer valid and shouldn't be tolerated. The reasoning that if we don't buy an inferior product (on BD, I'm not referring to the MODs on DVD for which there's a very limited audience) the studios will no longer offer other product is patent nonsense. That 'product' makes more money (billions since the beginning of home video) for them than theatrical does. I urge you to read Bill Hunt's article in yesterday's www.thedigitalbits.com giving his opinion on why home video sales are down 20%.

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

Quote:


A poor scratched and damaged 16mm copy of Night of the Living Dead or His Girl Friday, mastered for public domain VHS in 1979, can be used to create Blu-ray discs. Doing so would create absolute garbage.


But both films would still be Blu-ray releases, and therefore perceived by some as high quality, the best achievable, or the best we're apt to get on the format.

 

[RobertR]

Originally Posted by marsnkc


What I'll never understand is why those who defend a bad transfer to BD (as loudly, by the way, and with as much 'hyperbole' - the catchphrase 'du jour' - as those 'anal' people who complain about one) can't accept the opinions of those whose very careers are in the film, video and related fields, especially those whose goal is to bring us the closest approximation of film to the home theater.

The impression I get is that what's at work with the "you have to accept whatever they give us" people is that they don't really consider these to be bad transfers. They think they're quite satisfactory, and sometimes even downright good. I think they wouldn't make the comments they do if they were truly dissatisfied.

 

[marsnkc]

Originally Posted by RobertR




The impression I get is that what's at work with the "you have to accept whatever they give us" people is that they don't really consider these to be bad transfers. They think they're quite satisfactory, and sometimes even downright good. I think they wouldn't make the comments they do if they were truly dissatisfied.

Robert-


The answer to that is the very point I make in the next paragraph of that post.


Obviously they're not dissatisfied, but anyone who takes enough interest in home theater to join a forum such as this - essentially dedicated to its advancement and peopled by experts in video and film - should be.


However, it shouldn't take an expert to tell one that there's something wrong with a transfer that makes the face of an Olivier; Streep; Brandauer; Redford; Scott; Wayne and a host of others look like plastic instead of real skin. It's very flattering to those of a certain age but it takes me completely out of the moment. I'm so fascinated by what I know ain't real that I'm no longer concentrating on the story or even on what the actors are saying.

The excessive DNR and other manipulations that cause these anomalies remind me of the extreme pre-digital air-brushing used on the cover of the program for the Burton/Taylor 'Private Lives' play. In place of the wonderful craggy face that gave Burton so much character was what literally looked like a smooth balloon with his eyes, nose and mouth superimposed on it. I still have it, though it's hard to look at, and not for one moment did I think, 'Wow, Burton looks great...so young!'


I'm not surprised if a Walmart bargain-bin hunter or an iPod-toting preteen is happy with his BD of Spartacus, but it worries me when a member of a home theater forum is, despite the evidence of what he's seeing and the opinion of experts.

Unfortunately, the only way to show anyone the difference between the current BD of Spartacus and what it could and should look like, is to produce a proper transfer. However, a quick look at the brilliant job done on a comparably aged Dr. No should give some indication that something's rotten in the state of Denmark.


Even more confounding to me is the attitude of Universal itself. Isn't there something ironic about the efforts of people to get a studio to do justice to its own movie, for heaven's sake...?!!! Where's the pride that a cash-strapped MGM showed in its Bonds, Warner in their beautiful transfers and exquisite box sets of GWTW and Oz, the exciting Criterion box sets (in laserdisc days) of Lawrence and MFL - all with their souvenir books (hell, Criterion's regular offerings come with books), that remind one of the excitement generated by 'event' movies with their souvenir programs, of which Spartacus was one. Sad to see it sink to the level of a devalued 'commodity'.

 

[marsnkc]

Correction to Post #76. The 1994 laserdisc box set of the Harris/Katz restoration of My Fair Lady was not a Criterion release. I have the set but it's been awhile. It was released through Fox Video.

Anyone not familiar with laserdisc and curious to see what this set looked like should go to YouTube. A certain 'moviehound71' posted a video in May (of this year!) showing off his set (with its 24-carat gold-plated cd amongst other goodies!).


I don't know where I've been, and this is off topic here, but I wasn't aware that the video rights to MFL had reverted to CBS/Paramount and they've already come out with an apparently inferior SD-DVD edition to the Warner 2-disc set (which I'm grateful I have). Also, apparently, the documentary and/or the commentary by Robert Harris and Jim Katz has been dropped due to rights issues, so anyone who doesn't have the Warner set should try to dig one up. The disappointing Paramount dvd bodes ill for a longed for BD of this huge favorite.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Originally Posted by marsnkc




I'm not surprised if a Walmart bargain-bin hunter or an iPod-toting preteen is happy with his BD of Spartacus, but it worries me when a member of a home theater forum is, despite the evidence of what he's seeing and the opinion of experts.

Andrew:

It must be remembered that not every member of the Home Theater Forum has a 100" screen with the latest-greatest projector.


Many of the Blu-ray titles which have gotten panned here by the likes of Robert Harris, Michael Reuben and other HTF reviewers for such offenses (Patton, It's a Wonderful Life, etc.) have looked pretty good to me on my 32" 1080p screen.

I'm just making the point that there are an infinite number of variables that need to be taken into account (in terms of technical gear and discretion) before you get worried about HTF membership who have opinions which run contrary to your own.

I'm not defending the transfer of Spartacus and it's release on Blu-ray. I'm sure you folks have a very valid point. I just don't think there needs to be some kind of negative delineation drawn between HTF member and Wal-Mart bargain bin hunter. In fact, I consider myself a proud member of both communities!

 

Well said, Mike! And people can be bothered by different issues. But that doesn't make one person more versed in what they see/hear/experience than the next, especially when it comes to two moviebuffs!