How much does it cost to properly scan and transfer Ultra Panavision 70/MGM Camera 65 Films? (2 Viewers)

[RolandL]

70mm elements require 8K scans, the potential cost of a real restoration would be around a million dollars, maybe even two.

So the studios spent a million or two to scan and transfer each of the following titles to Blu-ray?

1959 - Ben-Hur
1962 - Mutiny on the Bounty
1963 - It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World
1965 - The Greatest Story Ever Told
1965 - Battle of the Bulge
1966 - Khartoum
2015 - The Hateful 8

 

[ahollis]

So the studios spent a million or two to scan and transfer each of the following titles to Blu-ray?

1959 - Ben-Hur
1962 - Mutiny on the Bounty
1963 - It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World
1965 - The Greatest Story Ever Told
1965 - Battle of the Bulge
1966 - Khartoum
2015 - The Hateful 8

The only title I would say that a lot of money was spent on is Ben~Hur. If you read the reviews for the rest, I think you would realize that that amount of money was not spent.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

2015 - The Hateful 8

4K digital masters were created as part of the normal post production workflow.

But in general, going back to a large format original element is going to cost a lot of money. There are far fewer scanners and facilities that can handle 70mm vs 35mm. The amount of data storage and processing power needed to manipulate those scans into a restored master is exponentially higher than 35mm. It’s just an unfortunate reality that for many 70mm films, the cost of creating new digital masters from 70mm elements is more than a single disc release can reasonably be expected to bring in.

 

[RolandL]

4K digital masters were created as part of the normal post production workflow.

But in general, going back to a large format original element is going to cost a lot of money. There are far fewer scanners and facilities that can handle 70mm vs 35mm. The amount of data storage and processing power needed to manipulate those scans into a restored master is exponentially higher than 35mm. It’s just an unfortunate reality that for many 70mm films, the cost of creating new digital masters from 70mm elements is more than a single disc release can reasonably be expected to bring in.

Original elements are 65mm. 70mm is the release print.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Original elements are 65mm. 70mm is the release print.

Yes, I know - I was going for simplicity in describing it with the more commonly known gauge but you are absolutely correct.

 

[Robert Harris]

So the studios spent a million or two to scan and transfer each of the following titles to Blu-ray?

1959 - Ben-Hur
1962 - Mutiny on the Bounty
1963 - It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World
1965 - The Greatest Story Ever Told
1965 - Battle of the Bulge
1966 - Khartoum
2015 - The Hateful 8

Here’s your answer, after which this discussion should occur in it’s own thread, and not in the Kino arena.

No.

Cost is totally dependent upon two things.

1. Is the OCN complete, printable, basically undamaged and with reasonably viable timing lites?

2. What is the need? A quality video master or a top quality asset?

If the intent is toward a video master alone, the element needed is a wet-gate 65mm IP, for which the cost could - for a long film - run to 100k or thereabouts.

Once there is an IP, an 8k (or possibly 4k) scan can be performed for another 120k +/-.

Add clean-up, touch up timing, continuity (printer functions) and the job can come in at well under 500k.

The overriding question is whether (if a large format IP does not exist) the owner desires to pull the OCN for a reason other than analogue asset protection, as opposed to going whole hog (a tech term) toward a full 8k scan of the OCN with all normal attendant costs.

If the case is 8k OCN, yes - seven figures is easy.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Here’s your answer, after which this discussion should occur in it’s own thread, and not in the Kino arena.

You're right this discussion topic deserves a thread of its own!

 

[Robert Harris]

For the record, this is an EXTREME simplification.

 

[uncledougie]

With a population of about 330 million in the U.S. alone, surely there is enough of a market demand to justify restoring and preserving films like El Cid or The Fall of the Roman Empire to a condition releasable as a Blu-ray, if not 4K, which might understandably be a stretch. More than two generations past the era when they were made, enough admirers are still alive who would appreciate seeing these films in as close to original condition as possible that, if not runaway best sellers, the releases could at least turn a decent profit and also allow younger film fans to discover titles like these for their epic visual and audio qualities (both have superb scores by Miklos Rozsa and Dimitri Tiomkin, respectively). Add foreign markets to the equation, and hopefully the effort would be financially viable.

 

[Worth]

With a population of about 330 million in the U.S. alone, surely there is enough of a market demand to justify restoring and preserving films like El Cid or The Fall of the Roman Empire to a condition releasable as a Blu-ray, if not 4K, which might understandably be a stretch. More than two generations past the era when they were made, enough admirers are still alive who would appreciate seeing these films in as close to original condition as possible that, if not runaway best sellers, the releases could at least turn a decent profit and also allow younger film fans to discover titles like these for their epic visual and audio qualities (both have superb scores by Miklos Rozsa and Dimitri Tiomkin, respectively). Add foreign markets to the equation, and hopefully the effort would be financially viable.

The reality is, with the exception of massive hits and cult films, blu-rays of older titles are lucky to sell 5000 copies.

 

[Kino Lorber Insider]

Here’s your answer, after which this discussion should occur in it’s own thread, and not in the Kino arena.

No.

Cost is totally dependent upon two things.

1. Is the OCN complete, printable, basically undamaged and with reasonably viable timing lites?

2. What is the need? A quality video master or a top quality asset?

If the intent is toward a video master alone, the element needed is a wet-gate 65mm IP, for which the cost could - for a long film - run to 100k or thereabouts.

Once there is an IP, an 8k (or possibly 4k) scan can be performed for another 120k +/-.

Add clean-up, touch up timing, continuity (printer functions) and the job can come in at well under 500k.

The overriding question is whether (if a large format IP does not exist) the owner desires to pull the OCN for a reason other than analogue asset protection, as opposed to going whole hog (a tech term) toward a full 8k scan of the OCN with all normal attendant costs.

If the case is 8k OCN, yes - seven figures is easy.

No studio would allow their original 65mm elements to be scanned at 4K, they always require 8K scans. Paramount new scans for their VistaVision releases is 6K.

 

[David Norman]

The reality is, with the exception of massive hits and cult films, blu-rays of older titles are lucky to sell 5000 copies.

I think you may be off by a factor of 5 if not 10.

 

[Robert Harris]

No studio would allow their original 65mm elements to be scanned at 4K, they always require 8K scans. Paramount new scans for their VistaVision releases is 6K.

Correct. Only an IP would be scanned at a lower resolution. As to VVLA, most scans are 4k, which is all that’s necessary. For marketing, turn the frame sideways and is 6k x 4k. Bragging rights.

 

[MarkantonyII]

So the studios spent a million or two to scan and transfer each of the following titles to Blu-ray?

1959 - Ben-Hur
1962 - Mutiny on the Bounty
1963 - It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World
1965 - The Greatest Story Ever Told
1965 - Battle of the Bulge
1966 - Khartoum
2015 - The Hateful 8

Mutiny, B o t B and Khartoum were (from memory) all from 35mm reduction elements, i believe Grand Prix was too. So no 65mm related transfer costs.

Ben Hur was 8K OCN scan, would have been a v costly 4K? DI.

IAMMMMW was from OCN for majority of Theatrical and various materials for the additional footage.

Criterion and Mr Harris were responsible for the long version of …Mad World, i doubt it was cheap, but i doubt they had a seven figure budget, could be wrong!

GSET was from a 65mm IP i believe, not a DI. The transfer was v old and probably 2K scan. Poss dates from Laserdisc era/early 00’s.

Hateful 8 had standard 65mm printing materials and i believe also had a 4K DI produced during post production for home media and DCP use.

Happy to be corrected, all from memory!

M

 

[JoeDoakes]

Mutiny, B o t B and Khartoum were (from memory) all from 35mm reduction elements, i believe Grand Prix was too. So no 65mm related transfer costs.

Ben Hur was 8K OCN scan, would have been a v costly 4K? DI.

IAMMMMW was from OCN for majority of Theatrical and various materials for the additional footage.

Criterion and Mr Harris were responsible for the long version of …Mad World, i doubt it was cheap, but i doubt they had a seven figure budget, could be wrong!

GSET was from a 65mm IP i believe, not a DI. The transfer was v old and probably 2K scan. Poss dates from Laserdisc era/early 00’s.

Hateful 8 had standard 65mm printing materials and i believe also had a 4K DI produced during post production for home media and DCP use.

Happy to be corrected, all from memory!

M

Hateful 8 was digital in many theaters so that cost may have been baked into the release budget.

 

[RolandL]

No studio would allow their original 65mm elements to be scanned at 4K, they always require 8K scans. Paramount new scans for their VistaVision releases is 6K.

Probably why WB bought a 65mm scanner.

 

[RolandL]

Mutiny, B o t B and Khartoum were (from memory) all from 35mm reduction elements, i believe Grand Prix was too. So no 65mm related transfer costs.

So, they made 2.76 35mm reduction elements for those three titles and maybe HT?

 

[OliverK]

Probably why WB bought a 65mm scanner.

Apart from 2001 and Ben-Hur Warner has these 65mm 5-perf productions that will justify the money spent on that 65mm scanner:

Around The World in 80 Days
Raintree County
Mutiny on the Bounty
Cheyenne Autumn
Grand Prix
Battle of the Bulge
Ice Station Zebra
Ryan's Daughter
Hamlet

Until now Warner has been working with 35mm reduction elements for most if not all of them.

 

[MarkantonyII]

So, they made 2.76 35mm reduction elements for those three titles and maybe HT?

I’ve no idea how old the 35mm reductions were, i’d guess they were either legacy assets or created for use in the dvd transfers as i believe all have the same picture master for BD as DVD.

 

[Stephen_J_H]

I’ve no idea how old the 35mm reductions were, i’d guess they were either legacy assets or created for use in the dvd transfers as i believe all have the same picture master for BD as DVD.

Go take a look at some of the reduction element captures at widescreenmuseum.com. Most were cropped to 2.5:1 in the reduction element.