Going to 7.1: Do Surrounds need to be at ear level?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Ronald Epstein, Feb 14, 2014.

  1. Ronald Epstein

    Ronald Epstein Administrator
    Owner

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 1997
    Messages:
    46,408
    Likes Received:
    4,357
    Real Name:
    Ronald Epstein
    Robert,

    Received the link. Thank You!!!

    The list of titles is just immense. I knew sooner or later I would have to
    upgrade. And, I can imagine, the step up from 5.1 to 7.1 must be a
    dramatic improvement.

    Plus, I constantly review Blu-rays that are in 7.1 but don't have the ability
    to comment on the mix. To date, everything has been downmixed to 5.1

    This is the reason....no matter how I attempted to accomplish it....that an
    upgrade was needed.

    I will say that it was you that pushed me over the fence.
     
  2. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
    HW Reviewer

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    17,112
    Likes Received:
    898
    Location:
    Chicago-ish/NW Indiana
    Real Name:
    Sam
    Ron, even if not your cup of tea...The Guillotines(well go USA).Sonic thrill ride doesn't describe it accurately enough.
     
  3. JohnRice

    JohnRice Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2000
    Messages:
    8,809
    Likes Received:
    204
    Real Name:
    John
    No need to apologize for Chicago. It's one of the better surround movies, even if it isn't special effects and explosions.
     
  4. FoxyMulder

    FoxyMulder 映画ファン

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,236
    Likes Received:
    1,613
    Location:
    Scotland
    Real Name:
    Malcolm
    Chicago sounds superb, a great workout for all the speakers and a good movie too.
     
  5. Ronald Epstein

    Ronald Epstein Administrator
    Owner

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 1997
    Messages:
    46,408
    Likes Received:
    4,357
    Real Name:
    Ronald Epstein
    Schan,

    Been looking at reviews. Somewhat favorable, but all say the
    7.1 mix is indeed outstanding.

    It's $10. Give me a couple hours -- a few glasses of wine with dinner --
    I may just pull the trigger.

    Thanks for the recommendation.
     
    Adam Gregorich likes this.
  6. Gregg Loewen

    Gregg Loewen Video Standards Instructor, THX Ltd.
    Insider

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 1999
    Messages:
    6,379
    Likes Received:
    32
    Location:
    New England
    Real Name:
    Gregg Loewen
    hi Ron
    Im not reading all the stuff in this thread.

    The side and rear surrounds should be at 18-24 inches ABOVE your ear level.
     
  7. Ronald Epstein

    Ronald Epstein Administrator
    Owner

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 1997
    Messages:
    46,408
    Likes Received:
    4,357
    Real Name:
    Ronald Epstein
    Gregg the sides and rears are about 18 inches above ear level
     
  8. Gregg Loewen

    Gregg Loewen Video Standards Instructor, THX Ltd.
    Insider

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 1999
    Messages:
    6,379
    Likes Received:
    32
    Location:
    New England
    Real Name:
    Gregg Loewen
    thumbs up.
     
  9. JohnRice

    JohnRice Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2000
    Messages:
    8,809
    Likes Received:
    204
    Real Name:
    John
    Now I feel better...
     
  10. Gregg Loewen

    Gregg Loewen Video Standards Instructor, THX Ltd.
    Insider

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 1999
    Messages:
    6,379
    Likes Received:
    32
    Location:
    New England
    Real Name:
    Gregg Loewen
    TUMS ?
     
  11. Dougofthenorth

    Dougofthenorth Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2014
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    14
    Real Name:
    Doug
    Here is a link for 7.1 DTS/LCPM/Dolby TrueHD http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=159814

    Here is a list of DD 7.1 http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/content/movie/release/dolby-surround-7-1-movies.html

    I would also suggest you get a good BR disc with a favorite band's live concert & listen to that as well! :)

    http://bluedvd.pl/category/en/music-blu-ray

    You also may find a personal preference to DTS vs Dolby encoding
    - to a lot of people there is a noticeable difference.

    DTS site http://www.dts.com/consumers/entertainment-audio/new-releases.aspx

    I see the Jurassic Park discs are there in 7.1 DTS-HD MA !!
     
  12. Ronald Epstein

    Ronald Epstein Administrator
    Owner

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 1997
    Messages:
    46,408
    Likes Received:
    4,357
    Real Name:
    Ronald Epstein
    Want to start with welcoming Doug to the forum. Found out that he has been
    building HT system and music conservatories in a professional capacity since
    the late 70's. He and I spent some time on the phone yesterday and he gave
    me a great overview of how to properly set up my speakers...

    ....which, by the way, do jive with what Gregg Loewen suggested.

    Anyway, Doug is going to be a huge asset to the speaker area of this forum.
    Thanks for joining.

    Finally got my speakers hooked up and calibrated using Audyssey on my
    Denon receiver.

    Popped in Pacific Rim and was frustrated that there was no sound being
    directed to the rear speakers. Didn't take long for me to think about going
    into the menu setup. Duh....these discs don't necessarily default to 7.1.

    Listening to Pacific Rim, and then Chicago, I was able to faintly make out
    the sounds being encoded to those channels. I realize that my setup is not
    optimal, and as such, I have a feeling that the sides are canceling out the
    rears as it's very hard to pinpoint where the sound is coming from.

    Doug has urged me to drill holes and point the rears downward. At some
    point I may be forced to do that, or, if I can find a way to tilt the speakers
    on the pole stand, that might work better.

    I am glad I saved all the Dolby Digital and DTS demo discs that I had picked
    up at trade shows over the year. Found the Dolby Digital HD3 demo disc to
    be the most impressive demonstration of 7.1 sound with its various music
    clips and even a scene from Transformers. I was able to hear more precise
    effect and musical instrument placement on those discs. Of course, their
    bouncing sphere log with traveling female voice is kind of incredible to hear.

    So, the 7.1 has turned out to be an enhancement, but thus far, I am not
    certain a huge one. It seems like anything going to those rear channels is
    being drowned out by the side ones. However, when listening to the Dolby
    Digital logo sequence, it seemed that the sound was evenly being distributed.

    ...and again, I know my setup is causing this problem.
     
  13. Dougofthenorth

    Dougofthenorth Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2014
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    14
    Real Name:
    Doug
    Thanks for the info & props Ron,

    With your setup being new, under the heading of psychoacoustics, there is a natural process of the human ears/brain taking a length of time to be accustom to different & new acoustical environments.

    Back in the 60's with the Dynaco 4 dimensional components, (Hafler circuit) they included material, explaining that it would take time for the listener to be able to pick up the differences.
    I remember it being between 4 days to 2 weeks ??
    I have always found this to be true to a certain degree, as I progressed to 11.1.
    Never say never, but I'm not going to 22.2 :lol:

    Further, the auto equalizing programs YPAO, Audyssy & etc create different characteristics
    liked or not by different people & in their physical environments.

    I would give it a week or so. At some point it will be a huge difference.
    If your system allows 5.1 to 7.1 matrixing - put on Saving private Ryan & Black Hawk Down & play the at reference levels :drum:
    For music, the live concert HD discs are amazing!
    Sanatana's Supernatural DVD-A is superb http://slowhandbcn.com/santana.html#SUPERNATURAL LIVE

    as is Eagles Farewell Tour live http://www.amazon.ca/Eagles-Farewell-Tour-Melbourne-Blu-ray/dp/B00AR1G3FS/ref=sr_1_1/187-4922236-4379548?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1392823857&sr=1-1&keywords=eagles+farewell+tour+1

    As for setting up the initial settings, I try both auto & manual for a week or two, then select accordingly.
    I find DTS the most "normal" out-of-the-box, as I do with (rarer) DD optimized for HT discs.
    They don't suffer the "Dolby drop/boost" found on straight movie to disc soundtracks.
    After you get it to your liking, you will then be trying out different DSP programs on your AVR for months or even to come.

    On the deluxe version of the DVD Se7en (Brad Pitt), there was a fantastic extra explaining how movie sound tracks were re-engineered & optimized for home listening. http://Se7en (1995) - IMDb
    - Extremely interesting for the layman & Pro if you never actually witnessed it.

    Lastly, when the E & Q has being done at a reference level of say 86-89db, when you are playing back media at less than that level, you may have to tweak the center or rear channels to get the desired effect at normal listening levels. I call it the WAF Levels Setting :)
    Your AVR may allow you to save various settings profiles.
     
  14. Ronald Epstein

    Ronald Epstein Administrator
    Owner

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 1997
    Messages:
    46,408
    Likes Received:
    4,357
    Real Name:
    Ronald Epstein
    Doug,

    Reading your response I would have no clue that you have any sort of history
    with audio. :D

    Thank you for the explanation. Seems like I should be giving this a little more
    time to sink in.

    Was very excited about the Eagles Farewell Tour. Thought it would be a great
    7.1 disc. But, I am not certain it is in 7.1 and perhaps that is one of the discs you
    recommended to matrix (which I am uncertain my Denon does).

    Not sure if the Canadian Blu-ray release is 7.1 (it doesn't say), as the American
    counterpart is only 5.1.
     
  15. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
    HW Reviewer

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    17,112
    Likes Received:
    898
    Location:
    Chicago-ish/NW Indiana
    Real Name:
    Sam
    Ron...All(at least I would hope all...not seen them all) 7.1 AVR haveDPL IIxDTS Neo 6.Those are added on to 2.0/4.0/5.1 discrete mixes.Like DSX or IIz, they are an add on.So when you move onto 9 channel in the future...Watching the super bowl, you'd have...DD DPL IIx DSX/IIz
     
  16. Dougofthenorth

    Dougofthenorth Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2014
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    14
    Real Name:
    Doug
     
  17. Ronald Epstein

    Ronald Epstein Administrator
    Owner

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 1997
    Messages:
    46,408
    Likes Received:
    4,357
    Real Name:
    Ronald Epstein
    Doug,

    Thank you so very much for finding that out.

    Any particular setting you would recommend in particular for 5.1 movies?
     
  18. JohnRice

    JohnRice Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2000
    Messages:
    8,809
    Likes Received:
    204
    Real Name:
    John
    Welcome Doug. Great info.
     
    Dougofthenorth likes this.
  19. Dougofthenorth

    Dougofthenorth Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2014
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    14
    Real Name:
    Doug
     
  20. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
    HW Reviewer

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    17,112
    Likes Received:
    898
    Location:
    Chicago-ish/NW Indiana
    Real Name:
    Sam
    Oh yeah, now I know why(the other day...) you sidestepped DSX/ IIz.Not sure bi/do pole would work.Although a forum member has stuck bi-pole up high(already had them).
     

Share This Page