Could the original, unaltered STAR WARS be on its way to Blu-ray? (2 Viewers)

[Brandon Conway]

Lucas' refusal to acknowledge the original versions of the films has led to this. Disney and Lucasfilm may be aware, but the previous 20 years makes fans hesitant to trust that.

 

[Dave H]

You guys need to learn a little more about Verta before spouting off.

 

[TravisR]

You guys needs to learn a little more about Verta before spouting off.

I don't know if that's directed at my post but I'm asking what I feel is a legitimate question- why is Disney meeting with him at all? It's not an insult, I can't think of any reason that they would meet with someone who can't tell them anything they don't already know or wouldn't arrive at on their own.

 

[Dave H]

There's more to it all that meets the eye.

 

[TravisR]

There's more to it all that meets the eye.

Such as? I'm guessing you can't say but I think it's fair to ask.

 

[Dave H]

Torsten Kaiser (film restoration expert) has said Raiders on Blu is very close to the original color timing.

Regarding the Nazi flag color: I saw a 2K DCP viewing of the movie last year and the flag was a bit more red compared to my watching the Blu on my pro-calibrated JVC front projector and Samsung plasma. The wider color gamut of DCI-P3 helped a bit more here and with the overall color. I took notes during the viewing and came home immediately to look at specific scenes on the disc.

 

[Tony Bensley]

I don't know if that's directed at my post but I'm asking what I feel is a legitimate question- why is Disney meeting with him at all? It's not an insult, I can't think of any reason that they would meet with someone who can't tell them anything they don't already know or wouldn't arrive at on their own.

Hi Travis!

While I agree that your question is a good one, I'm also thinking that assuming a meeting between Mike Verta and Disney is happening, then I tend to assume somebody representing the latter is at the very least, open to hearing some input in regards to restoring the original unaltered STAR WARS Trilogy. By extension, I also think it fair to state as others have that Disney is interested in ultimately issuing these, by whatever means they end up choosing, and by whatever time frame.

Just putting in my two bits, for what it's worth!

CHEERS!

Tony

 

[Dave H]

Hi Travis,

I've been trying to give subtle hints here and there, but that's about it for now.

 

[dvdclon]

I don't know if that's directed at my post but I'm asking what I feel is a legitimate question- why is Disney meeting with him at all?

"It's a TRAP!"

 

[Mike Boone]

Torsten Kaiser (film restoration expert) has said Raiders on Blu is very close to the original color timing.

Regarding the Nazi flag color: I saw a 2K DCP viewing of the movie last year and the flag was a bit more red compared to my watching the Blu on my pro-calibrated JVC front projector and Samsung plasma. The wider color gamut of DCI-P3 helped a bit more here and with the overall color. I took notes during the viewing and came home immediately to look at specific scenes on the disc.

Thank you Dave for providing a very interesting response to my question. But in spite of DCI-P3 having a wider color gamut than 1080p Blu-ray, never the less, carefully produced Blu-rays are capable of doing an essentially perfect job in recreating the type of red found on a Nazi flag, so I don't know what sort of problem may have occurred in transferring Raiders of the Lost Ark to BD. For example, on the Blu-ray of Lawrence of Arabia, the red that appears on some British uniforms, to my eyes, is exactly on the money.

 

[Kevin EK]

Dave, I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing anything in Mike Verta's credits that would make him an expert on restoring Star Wars or any other movie. I don't discount his interest in these movies, and I applaud his enthusiasm. But we're not talking about a fan film. We're talking about someone making their own bootleg scans of a copyrighted movie, and then saying that he intends to have a meeting with studio execs to show them his home project. That entire idea seems odd to me, and I say that as someone who has worked as an assistant director in this business for the past 22 years.

And again, I'm not knocking the enthusiasm of Harmy or the others. But they aren't trained restoration technicians. Several have admitted that they have absolutely no training whatsoever and have been doing their work on their own. My concern over what they've been doing isn't Monday morning quarterbacking. Because we're not talking about pro football players, or about someone putting everything they have into making their first movie, like Robert Rodriguez with El Mariachi. We're talking about fans of a movie deciding on their own to do their own bootleg restorations. And then posting digital files of their versions of the movies online for other people to download. There are problems with this idea that go far beyond just criticizing someone else's hard work. That hard work was done to property that these guys don't own.

Now, if Verta somehow has a sanctioned meeting with Disney and Fox executives where he will be giving them a screening of his work, more power to him. My own experience tells me that this is unlikely. I think it could be possible that he has a friend who works in Disney's offices with a title - I know a former AD who used to be a junior VP over there, as I recall. But that's not the same thing as talking to Kathleen Kennedy about how she should go about preparing a Blu-ray release of the original Star Wars trilogy.

 

[Kevin EK]

BTW regarding Raiders, I have not seen issues with the accuracy of the color, but I have noted one issue at the very end of the movie, regarding that big closing shot of the matte painting of the warehouse. It's simply too hard-edged. You can practically see the signature of the artist. I believe what is happening is that we are literally too close to the OCN without any softening. When I saw Raiders in theaters, I never noticed the painting - because I was watching a print that was at least 2 generations away from the OCN and thus just a little bit softer - just enough that the hard edges of the painting didn't announce themselves. (I should also go back and look at the beginning of Indy's journey to Nepal, just to see how that plane and water fared)

 

[Dave Moritz]

I would accept the original theatrical Star Wars trilogy on 1080p blu-ray if that is the best we will ever get and that is if they ever release it. But I would defiantly love to have a UHD 4K release even if it is a 2K up conversion. Because of my plans of eventually getting a UHD 4K projector and a 120" projection screen the ultimate for myself would be to have a UHD 4K blu-ray taken from 4K scans of the original theatrical 35mm or 4K DCP. It may never happen but one can dream can't they.

Star Wars IV-VI Original Theatrical Release
UHD 4K Blu-ray
DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby True HD

 

[Lord Dalek]

I'd like to see who is making this claim that the Raiders blu-ray colors are incorrect and what evidence they have. If its based off some fading memory or an old VHS transfer, I'd be prepared to dismiss it then and there.

 

[Dave H]

Thank you Dave for providing a very interesting response to my question. But in spite of DCI-P3 having a wider color gamut than 1080p Blu-ray, never the less, carefully produced Blu-rays are capable of doing an essentially perfect job in recreating the type of red found on a Nazi flag, so I don't know what sort of problem may have occurred in transferring Raiders of the Lost Ark to BD. For example, on the Blu-ray of Lawrence of Arabia, the red that appears on some British uniforms, to my eyes, is exactly on the money.

Hi Mike,

Let me ask the question: do we know with 100% certainty that the original color timing of Raiders had purely red flags? (I cannot accept previous home versions as "evidence" for reasons Robert Harris has discussed before.)

Now, Raiders was re-timed since they did go back to the original negative and there is always that potential something was changed that is different from the original, but I really don't see it as a big issue - and the rec 709 color gamut is quite a bit smaller than DCI-P3 which gives more saturation and affects tint to some degree. Maybe something changed in the conversion process although I will say the flags in the DCI viewing was not a deep red.

 

[Dave H]

BTW regarding Raiders, I have not seen issues with the accuracy of the color, but I have noted one issue at the very end of the movie, regarding that big closing shot of the matte painting of the warehouse. It's simply too hard-edged. You can practically see the signature of the artist. I believe what is happening is that we are literally too close to the OCN without any softening. When I saw Raiders in theaters, I never noticed the painting - because I was watching a print that was at least 2 generations away from the OCN and thus just a little bit softer - just enough that the hard edges of the painting didn't announce themselves. (I should also go back and look at the beginning of Indy's journey to Nepal, just to see how that plane and water fared)

I too noticed that about Raiders with the warehouse shot. I noticed it a little bit with the Nazi vehicle falling off the cliff too. With that said and some of the color controversy (which looks good to me), Raiders just looks gorgeous and very film-like on Blu-ray. It projects wonderfully. Consider me extremely happy.

 

[Allansfirebird]

I'm very impressed with the work that a group of fans have been able to put together. It's truly astounding, and no amount of qualification or back-handed compliments of their work can minimize the work they've done. Yes, it's a bootleg, but I think it's insulting to just dismiss the QUALITY of the work done.

 

[Worth]

I'm very impressed with the work that a group of fans have been able to put together. It's truly astounding, and no amount of qualification or back-handed compliments of their work can minimize the work they've done. Yes, it's a bootleg, but I think it's insulting to just dismiss the QUALITY of the work done.

And the bootlegs are of superior technical quality to the official Lucasfilm releases.

 

[Kevin EK]

A further couple of quick observations:

I don't know that George Lucas has refused to acknowledge the earlier versions of his movies. He acknowledges them, but he prefers his revised versions. To him, the revised versions reflect changes he'd long wanted to make, and they are his movies.

And I need to note that a discussion of the quality of work on bootlegs is an odd idea. I agree that it's insulting to do so. It's insulting to the work and reputations of the professionals who do restoration work for their livelihoods. It's insulting to people who have spent decades handling film negatives, and preserving them for future generations. It's insulting to say that someone sitting at home and doing their own bootleg restoration/cut on their personal computer should be viewed on a parallel plane with the people who do this professionally at Fotokem or anywhere else.

I will say again, to make it clearer. People who are doing amateur bootleg restorations are making changes to color timing and other aspects of these movies. When they make those changes to address the issues they can see and understand, they are also making changes that they don't immediately see or understand - which can result in more serious problems actually being created.

When I worked on JAG, we had a scene we had shot at Camp Pendelton, where we had been working just outside a hangar where some aircraft were undergoing maintenance inside. We had been told that we were not to show what was going on inside the hangar as some avionics were exposed and this was all classified material - it couldn't be photographed and then aired on national television. So our director of photography set the exposure to essentially black out the hangar interior and balance the colors and everything else from that. After we completed the episode, our Post Production group looked at the scene and decided that they wanted to see a little more depth from the hangar interior. So they adjusted the color timing after the fact, to bring up whatever could be retrieved. The result they saw brought up a hint of depth and showed more definition of the back windows of the hangar. The avionics were still hidden. But there was an unintended consequence. Right outside the hangar was a large fuel truck, painted in olive drab camouflage. (I had set the truck to drive around multiple other scenes we did on the flightline that day, but for this scene we just had it parked as scenic background.) Because of the timing change, when I watched the episode air on CBS, I noted that the truck had turned from olive green to a dark blue. And that's an example from a lower level professional team trying to get a TV episode on the air with very little time. How far, one wonders, could this problem go if we were discussing an amateur who doesn't know what all the color values are before tampering with them? It's not insulting to point the issue out - it's a matter of understanding the consequences.

And there's also that issue of these movies being private property. It's one thing to discuss wanting a specific version of a movie restored. It's another to do your own bootleg cut, make copies of it and then distribute it for general consumption on the internet. There are multiple reasons not to do that kind of thing - including legal ones.

 

[johnSM]

Dave, I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing anything in Mike Verta's credits that would make him an expert on restoring Star Wars or any other movie.

And again, I'm not knocking the enthusiasm of Harmy or the others. But they aren't trained restoration technicians.

Lucasfilm are professionals, and look what we got with the error riddled 2004 DVDs, and then again with the Blurays. Each release reportedly correcting mistakes of a previous one, and in the process creating new ones too! And Mr Verta IS a pro, and works in the industry, and has access to many physical materials we could only dream of to 'calibrate' the accuracy of his work (that's a fact, by the way). Harmy is also in the industry now. No he's not a professional restoration expert, but the end results still look far better than the 'professional' blurays. At the end of the day, it's ONLY the end result that counts. I have the official releases, but truly find them unwatchable, if one values the colour timings of how Star Wars used to look, at any rate. I firmly believe at this point that Mr Verta's release IS going to lead to what we've all been hoping for..... (no, really, this time)