Can Amazon stand above the fray and make sense of the Android / tablet mess? (1 Viewer)

[Sam Posten]

Cmon man, that one was debunked in 2006:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/burnette/gplv3-myth-3-gpl-forbids-drm/354
Stall man hates in but so what.

 

[marsnkc]

It occurred to me after I'd written my last post, and before I saw the above, that Amazon would hardly list a '10-movie' storage capability ('Device Storage') if one couldn't download movies..........!

 

[mattCR]

Cmon man, that one was debunked in 2006:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/burnette/gplv3-myth-3-gpl-forbids-drm/354
Stall man hates in but so what.

It's more simple then even that; first GPL doesn't forbid it, but second, the assumption here is that the core OS players and mediums handle it. As Mandriva, SuSe and others have pointed out, just because the OS level is GPL, add-on applications and overlays do not have to be. I don't think Amazon will make their custom skin GPL, and they aren't under any obligation to do so. As long as they leave the core, they are fine. So, to do this in an the OS, they just have to provide their own media player. That's it.

 

[Hanson]

So the long an short of it is that GPL doesn't forbid DRM, but if you use it, it will have to be made public like everything else. So if you include DRM, you will have to make the blueprints public, so to speak. That's an interesting deterrent.

Currently, Netflix will only stream HD content to phones that have the TI OMAP 4 chipsets. That's because the DRM is on the chip level, and bypasses the GPL issue:

http://androinica.com/2011/07/netflix-hd-certification-goes-to-ti-omap-4-first/

And here's another hat thrown into the ring:

http://www.androidcentral.com/samsung-announces-7-inch-galaxy-tab-70-plus

It doesn't look like it's coming to the US until next year. But if the Fire is all the rage by then, Samsung will not be able to sell this for a penny more than $249 (if that).

 

[mattCR]

Not even that complex. If you alter the OS to include DRM support, yes.
But Android doesn't have any built in players. So, the inclusion of a secondary player can have whatever DRM it wants, with no need to alter GPL, because it's an after market ad-on. SuSe went through this a few years ago with it's own stack. Amazon is pretty well protected on this front, and if Google wants to litigate it, it's a great way to lose future partners who'd be scared of what happens when they put on their own specific DRM clients.

Originally Posted by Hanson /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/120#post_3855779
So the long an short of it is that GPL doesn't forbid DRM, but if you use it, it will have to be made public like everything else. So if you include DRM, you will have to make the blueprints public, so to speak. That's an interesting deterrent.

Currently, Netflix will only stream HD content to phones that have the TI OMAP 4 chipsets. That's because the DRM is on the chip level, and bypasses the GPL issue:

http://androinica.com/2011/07/netflix-hd-certification-goes-to-ti-omap-4-first/

And here's another hat thrown into the ring:

http://www.androidcentral.com/samsung-announces-7-inch-galaxy-tab-70-plus

It doesn't look like it's coming to the US until next year. But if the Fire is all the rage by then, Samsung will not be able to sell this for a penny more than $249 (if that).

 

[Hanson]

Yes Matt, I understand your point, but if DRM were an easy software based solution, then why go to the trouble of have DRM on the chip level for HD video? I'm not that well versed on implementing DRM, but I assume there's something deeper than just software that needs to be addressed to have it working, at least on the video side. Kindle has DRM on its content, so you are correct that you can have DRM on Android as long as it's tucked inside of apps.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Originally Posted by Hanson /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/120#post_3855791
Yes Matt, I understand your point, but if DRM were an easy software based solution, then why go to the trouble of have DRM on the chip level for HD video? I'm not that well versed on implementing DRM, but I assume there's something deeper than just software that needs to be addressed to have it working, at least on the video side. Kindle has DRM on its content, so you are correct that you can have DRM on Android as long as it's tucked inside of apps.

I'm no DRM expert, but I would think it's easier for people to bypass (vs outright break) the DRM if you choose software over hardware. If it's done in software, then there's more opportunities for the decrypted content to be grabbed somewhere along the playback chain before its final intended output. If it's done strictly in hardware, there may be virtually no opportunities for that depending on exactly how it's implemented.

_Man_

 

[mattCR]

In some cases, you're right; the encryption can be quite CPU intensive.. in some cases. In other cases, It's simple a key-response (think DVD encryption). Where the key is held privately per device. That actually isn't nearly as intensive... but yes, is more likely to be hacked. But again, Amazon can argue with studios that using a Key/Response system in a file format that the device doesn't allow to be copied off of it makes it as safe as any DRM.

Originally Posted by Hanson /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/120#post_3855791
Yes Matt, I understand your point, but if DRM were an easy software based solution, then why go to the trouble of have DRM on the chip level for HD video? I'm not that well versed on implementing DRM, but I assume there's something deeper than just software that needs to be addressed to have it working, at least on the video side. Kindle has DRM on its content, so you are correct that you can have DRM on Android as long as it's tucked inside of apps.

 

[Dave Scarpa]

I did'nt read it allowed mass storage devices to transfer, so if I have a tiny 1tb drive I could connect it and the device would read from it, If so not bad.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

I guess one can keep one's entire digital media library on a big thumb drive or something toward that end. Not as good as having it directly accessible, but probably good enough for keeping storage hogging feature-length movies or similar off the rather limited internal storage. Not crazy about having to do that for music files as well though -- I guess one can just defer to one's smartphone or iPod or whatever other music player for that though that would kinda defeat one purpose for owning such a device...

_Man_

 

[Dave Scarpa]

And I have I bought a $79 E-ink Kindle and preordered the Fire, damn you Bezos

 

[Hanson]

Amazon will give you 5GB of cloud storage for free. So you could keep a ton of stuff there. Yes yes, you won't be able to listen to your music offline. But don't you have an iPod or something?

I have segregated my media consumption based on device:

1) Movies- Tab
2) Music - Phone
3) Games - Tab
4) Web Browsing - Phone (my Epic 4G Touch is faster than my 7" Galaxy Tab)
5) Kindle - both (because I can sync the books)

I keep a few songs on my Tab, but if I'm really hankering to listen to something, I either grab my phone or fire up Pandora.

I guess one can keep one's entire digital media library on a big thumb drive or something toward that end.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220585
And I have I bought a $79 E-ink Kindle and preordered the Fire, damn you Bezos

It has begun.

 

[marsnkc]

I guess one can keep one's entire digital media library on a big thumb drive or something toward that end. Not as good as having it directly accessible, but probably good enough for keeping storage hogging feature-length movies or similar off the rather limited internal storage. Not crazy about having to do that for music files as well though -- I guess one can just defer to one's smartphone or iPod or whatever other music player for that though that would kinda defeat one purpose for owning such a device...

_Man_

I got excited at the prospect of adding storage via a thumb, but someone commented on a forum today that the USB port is only for transferring data direct from a computer. It won't draw from a thumb.

 

[Hanson]

So far, the only Android device I know of that comes with USB host capability is the Epic 4G Touch, and apparently it's not enabled. They have created hacked drivers and spliced cables to enable it on some phones, but this isn't a regular Android feature.

 

[DaveF]

Google's reaction to Kindle Fire speaks volumes about its goals for Android. Kindle Fire is based on Android, and will run Android applications. Android has been struggling in the tablet space, so you'd expect that Google would be delighted to have Amazon on the Android bandwagon. But you'd be wrong. Let's look at the press release Google issued today to welcome Amazon to the Android family. Wait a minute, there is no press release. Okay, so let's look on the Google blog. Nothing at all. Maybe a tweet from Andy Rubin? Dead silence.

 

[Hanson]

We knew it was selling at a loss, but it doesn't look as bad as expected:

http://venturebeat.com/2011/09/30/amazon-kindle-fire-build-cos/

$10 loss per unit isn't that bad, but surprisingly, they only anticipate a $10 profit after digital purchases. Looks like it's a Trojan Horse to sell physical products from the main site more than a digital media platform.

 

[DaveF]

It must help immensely that they're their own middle-man. No retail markup for the initial launch.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Originally Posted by Hanson /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/120#post_3856998
We knew it was selling at a loss, but it doesn't look as bad as expected:

http://venturebeat.com/2011/09/30/amazon-kindle-fire-build-cos/

$10 loss per unit isn't that bad, but surprisingly, they only anticipate a $10 profit after digital purchases. Looks like it's a Trojan Horse to sell physical products from the main site more than a digital media platform.

Interesting that they only expect ~$10 loss upfront per unit.
But why should you be surprised that they would only expect ~$20 made in digital purchases for each unit? Like I said before, there's more hype than real substance in the app world (at least for average mainstream folks), especially since we're talking Android, not even iOS, *plus* Amazon's giving away free apps everyday -- and those seem to usually be some of the better ones they carry to boot. And for the non-mainstream folks like you and many others (who wouldn't think too much of rooting their devices and such), seems like so few of them are all that inclined to spend significant $ on apps anyway. Also, I'm not sure whether there's an actual limit, but so far, I'm not aware of any on app sharing on a single Amazon account (other than you can only link a device to one account at a time and only use Amazon purchased apps via that one account unless you somehow bypass their accounting mechanism after rooting the device). So if you have 2 or 3 (or more) of these in one household, etc. sharing apps, Amazon would only see a fraction of the revenue vs having them owned by totally separate individuals.

So not surprising at all, IMHO. And for all we know, maybe that ~$20/unit figure is actually even a tad optimistic.

But like I also pointed out earlier, the average mainstream folks will care far more about content distribution (and web browsing, email, etc.) than mostly junky apps anyway (w/ essentially very few exceptions and many of which probably wouldn't benefit Amazon's bottomline quite that much anyway, if they did make it to Amazon's App Store). They will care more about the other products and services that Amazon can now use the Kindle Fire to promote and offer more effectively (or at all). And those who don't care to buy and use any of Amazon's products and services won't be nearly as enticed by the Kindle Fire as something else that won't rely so heavily on the Cloud and such as we discussed earlier.

Heck, I never thought I'd want to pay for Amazon Prime before, but if I do get one or two (or more) Kindle Fires, then I'd definitely have to rethink that one -- it's not even like I'd be replacing NetFlix streaming either since I don't do NF nor personally care for streaming (at least in its current state) so far...

_Man_

 

[Hanson]

You can use your Amazon Apps across devices. I have them on three. You can't bring over your Market Apps to the Fire, however.

 

[mattCR]

Amazon plays some hardball with Google..

http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/07/amazon-adds-kindle-fire-specific-details-to-developer-portal-a/

Apps are also forbidden from using Google's Mobile Services (and in-app billing), which, if included, will have to be "gracefully" removed. In terms of actual content, Amazon has outlawed all apps that change the tablet's UI in any way (including theme- or wallpaper-based tools), as well as any that demand root access (it remains to be seen how the company will treat the root-dependent apps already in its store). Interested devs can find more information at the source link, below.

Big "G" is going to get absolutely nothing out of the Fire. Fire is now over 215,000 pre-orders, making it one of the fastest moving tablets in history (only the iPad is in the same class at this moment)