A Few Words About A few words about...™ High Noon -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Robert Harris]

Do not think you have commented on this bluray transfer, but one of the worst out there is Warner's "Rio Bravo".  The amount of grain in the high def transfer makes the film unwatchable.  And after the great job Warner did on "The Searchers", it was so disappointing to see this sub-par transfer. 

Rio Bravo and Searchers are problematic in very different way. With RB, there was an attempt -- and a good one-- to bring a faded yellow dye layer to the the fore. While the image still registered classic YDF in the blue highlights in hair, even bringing it to that point exacerbated the grain in the raising of the Y.
RAH

 

[FoxyMulder]

Originally Posted by jim_falconer /t/322358/a-few-words-about-high-noon-in-blu-ray/210#post_3956526
Do not think you have commented on this bluray transfer, but one of the worst out there is Warner's "Rio Bravo". The amount of grain in the high def transfer makes the film unwatchable. And after the great job Warner did on "The Searchers", it was so disappointing to see this sub-par transfer.

As noted in a review i did for my own site, there are quite a few onscreen artifacts which you can see between the 37 minute mark and the 39 minute mark, this is the barn scene and there seems to be a lot of grain reduction also evident in that scene, maybe it's something to do with the film elements and what they had to work with but its also evident the bitrate drops to a very low level during those scenes and this was an early Warner Bros effort when they had an obsession with trying to go as low as possible with the bitrate.

Nothing wrong with the parts of the film which have film grain, indeed those parts look great on a projection setup, you probably already have a calibrated display but my tip to many ( who don't ) is that if you are seeing an excessive noisy unnatural film grain then lower your sharpness and contrast controls.

 

[Yorkshire]

Serious question.  As I do like to stay in touch with what readers are seeing...
Can you give me a few "unwatchable" titles that you feel are mis-represented?
RAH

Good afternoon from the UK,where we've just won our first Gold.

Off the top of my head, I think there was something at your Chinatown thread, but I'll have to check.
Steve W

 

[Yorkshire]

Okay, in your thread on The Sting someone thanked you for:
"...saving me from another disaster."
You responded by saying:
"To be both clear, and fair, this Blu-ray is not a disaster. Most people will love it. The problem is that I was expecting perfection, and didn't see if."
Followed by:
"I would not pass on this release."
After similar comments in your Chinatown thread, you wrote:
"For the record, I'm not suggesting that it not be purchased."
And:
"The difference between this Blu-ray and an up-convert? Huge. This is not a bad release. "
Steve W

 

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Yorkshire /t/322358/a-few-words-about-high-noon-in-blu-ray/240#post_3956682
Okay, in your thread on The Sting someone thanked you for:
"...saving me from another disaster."
You responded by saying:
"To be both clear, and fair, this Blu-ray is not a disaster. Most people will love it. The problem is that I was expecting perfection, and didn't see if."
Followed by:
"I would not pass on this release."
After similar comments in your Chinatown thread, you wrote:
"For the record, I'm not suggesting that it not be purchased."
And:
"The difference between this Blu-ray and an up-convert? Huge. This is not a bad release. "
Steve W

I recall those comments. But where is the misrepresentation? Or am I not understanding what you're saying.

Re: the Olympics, while I'll root for the Colonies, nice to see your home team take a few.

RAH

 

[David Weicker]

I recall those comments.  But where is the misrepresentation?  Or am I not understanding what you're saying.
RAH

I, too, agree with what Steve is saying, and I think a better term would be misinterpret (instead of misrepresent). You were being fair and balanced and many people here were only picking out the negative statements and they were reaching the conclusion that you were condemning the release.
However, and this is just my interpretation, your most recent reviews have been less balanced to me, as you've admitted to changing your standards, and are now reviewing things on how you think they should be, instead of what they are.
David

 

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by David Weicker /t/322358/a-few-words-about-high-noon-in-blu-ray/240#post_3956703
I, too, agree with what Steve is saying, and I think a better term would be misinterpret (instead of misrepresent). You were being fair and balanced and many people here were only picking out the negative statements and they were reaching the conclusion that you were condemning the release.
However, and this is just my interpretation, your most recent reviews have been less balanced to me, as you've admitted to changing your standards, and are now reviewing things on how you think they should be, instead of what they are.
David

The HTF reviewers and I sometimes walk a very thin line, and try very hard to represent what we're seeing accurately. The problems come into play, when readers don't read an entire piece. The question has also been raised as to precisely for whom one is reviewing?

And that becomes a problem based upon the knowledge and understanding of the read, as well as their home theater setup.

My take is to be as honest as possible, reviewing for those who project. Few people trade down in home theaters. My belief has always been that a release should look good on the best system, and what may remain hidden on a 19" panel is irrelevant.

RAH

 

[Yorkshire]

I recall those comments.  But where is the misrepresentation?  Or am I not understanding what you're saying.
Re: the Olympics, while I'll root for the Colonies, nice to see your home team take a few.
RAH

One of us has hold of the wrong end of the stick - that'll be my fault.
I'm not saying you're misrepresenting anything. It's others who read your comments and misrepresent (actually that's harsh, misinterpret is probably fairer, as David says) by thinking they say discs are 'disasters', etc, when they're not.
Sorry about that - my fault for not being clearer.
BTW, it's also Yorkshire Day today, so I'm in a particularly good mood.

Steve W
ps. Great to see a bit of AMOLAD at the opening ceremony, too.
SW

 

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Yorkshire /t/322358/a-few-words-about-high-noon-in-blu-ray/240#post_3956788
One of us has hold of the wrong end of the stick - that'll be my fault.
I'm not saying you're misrepresenting anything. It's others who read your comments and misrepresent (actually that's harsh, misinterpret is probably fairer, as David says) by thinking they say discs are 'disasters', etc, when they're not.
Sorry about that - my fault for not being clearer.
BTW, it's also Yorkshire Day today, so I'm in a particularly good mood.
Steve W
ps. Great to see a bit of AMOLAD at the opening ceremony, too.
SW

Gotcha. On another site, at this time, someone is making the point that in discussion of the Rings trilogy, that I said that the image wasn't green or teal.

Many people don't actually read comments, but like to report what they didn't read.

RAH

 

[FoxyMulder]

Originally Posted by Yorkshire /t/322358/a-few-words-about-high-noon-in-blu-ray/240#post_3956788
I'm not saying you're misrepresenting anything. It's others who read your comments and misrepresent (actually that's harsh, misinterpret is probably fairer, as David says) by thinking they s

I think you underestimate the intelligence of people who read the reviews, i certainly do not misinterpret anything, Mr Harris has a projection setup, i have a projection setup, therefore if he finds something problematic, then likely i will too, i might be even more annoyed as i am a little fussier than the average Home Theater Forum reader ( i think ) but i am sure most people interpret these things correctly and you are overstating things.

It's just a few people that blow things out of proportion and then things go a little crazy, i think most understand, but there is the projection people and the television people, i now understand that sometimes the television people do not see what the projection people see, sometimes they do but many do not and i could widen the discussion here but will leave it at that, it's just that for many of us we have seen some of these films before and will not accept them in what we regard as poor releases, i had this discussion with you regarding The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, i felt it was poor, i didn't want to buy it, i was open to a rental of it, seeing the Italian release proved it could be done much better i just can't support such a release with my money, your argument was that its the film that should matter and not the transfer, i disagree, both matter when it comes to Blu ray, especially if you have seen the film many times in the past.

 

[TravisR]

I think you underestimate the intelligence of people who read the reviews, i certainly do not misinterpret anything, Mr Harris has a projection setup, i have a projection setup, therefore if he finds something problematic, then likely i will too, i might be even more annoyed as i am a little fussier than the average Home Theater Forum reader ( i think ) but i am sure most people interpret these things correctly and you are overstating things.

I think there's also some people who are essentially parrots though. They read a post from someone that has knowledge and they repeat it as if they have the same informed opinion when they're really just reciting someone's thoughts. If they had read RAH say that it was amazing, they'd say that it was amazing.
Just to clarify, I'm not putting you into that group because it's obvious that you are very knowledgable.

 

[Doctorossi]

i certainly do not misinterpret anything

There's a bold statement.

 

[FoxyMulder]

/t/322358/a-few-words-about-high-noon-in-blu-ray/240#post_3956798
There's a bold statement.

 

[Doctorossi]

No, This is a bold statement.

Touche.

 

[theonemacduff]

One of my problems in reading reviews is in knowing how to translate what's being said, and then doing another translation back into my system (which is modest; a 46" Sharp which is now approaching its five year anniversay). For example, most of the reviews I read of Patriot Games praised it. Purchased, and deeply disappointed to find weird contrast shifts in a lot of scenes, flickering and strange crawling things on the walls behind people as the light levels go up and down, sometimes even on faces. Got rid of the disc. Got a new BR player some time ago, a Sony, and re-purchased the disc; same problem. So is the problem in the encode? Or is it in my display? Which, btw, has no problems playing any other disc in my 500+ collection. So even though I feel have a good understanding of digital imaging, I have no idea how to describe this particular problem, or, in the broader strokes, quite what is being described by reviewers when they talk, for example, about frozen grain. I will, of course, be passing my "new" Patriot Games disc along to my son (maybe it will be okay on his system, as it seems to be on quite a few others), and waiting for, perhaps, a re-mastered issue of the film; and in the meantime, be satisfied (sigh) with an up-rezzed image from my old DVD.

 

[FoxyMulder]

Originally Posted by theonemacduff /t/322358/a-few-words-about-high-noon-in-blu-ray/240#post_3956812
most of the reviews I read of Patriot Games praised it. Purchased, and deeply disappointed to find weird contrast shifts in a lot of scenes, flickering and strange crawling things on the walls behind people as the light levels go up and down, sometimes even on faces.

Patriot Games and indeed Clear and Present Danger are quite poor Blu ray releases, both look overly processed, i think they need to upgrade an old master done for DVD, both have some de-graining and plenty of edge enhancement. The Hunt For Red October is a superb release though.

 

[RobHam]

Do not think you have commented on this bluray transfer, but one of the worst out there is Warner's "Rio Bravo".  The amount of grain in the high def transfer makes the film unwatchable.  And after the great job Warner did on "The Searchers", it was so disappointing to see this sub-par transfer. 

I agree with Jim on Rio Bravo - I'd also add also add Butch and Sundance to my personal list of BD disappointments.
For me, on a 47 inch screen, the biggest problem is inconsistency in grain levels - both these westerns on BD exhibit noticeable lurches in grain levels from start to finish.
I understand the reason for grain in a filmic medium, and why some hi-def transfers will have high grain levels to preserve high frequency information and faithfully retain what the DoP intended to be seen.
What I dont understand is why transfers such as the two mentioned above have grain levels that vary so much that it pulls you out of the movie.
When I watch a movie, I want to lose myself in the emotion of whats happening on the screen - I dont want to notice explosions of grain that appear and disappear from scene to scene
I wonder if the biggest problem the studios are faced with on BD transfers is that they are trying to please two mutually incompatible audiences - the pro-grain movie and home theatre enthusiasts and the anti-grain gamers more used to HD computer graphics.

 

[theonemacduff]

Patriot Games and indeed Clear and Present Danger are quite poor Blu ray releases, both look overly processed, i think they need to upgrade an old master done for DVD, both have some de-graining and plenty of edge enhancement.  The Hunt For Red October is a superb release though.

Absolutely. But then, HFRO also has some knockout actors in it, which adds to the value. I guess I could use my PG disc for a coaster, always a good backup plan. What gets me is the wide divergence in evaluations from the different reviewers. For example, DVD Beaver loves the new disc of Rumblefish; Dr Svet, on the other hand, at the other review site, thinks it's horrible; yet they are looking at the self-same disc. I think part of the deal is, when a reviewer likes the film, he or she is more willing to pass on the disc, no matter its faults. But it's good to know that others don't think much of the PG disc either (i.e., I'm not going mad).

 

[Vincent_P]

It's a shame that Robert Harris "doesn't quite get" Blu-ray. So sayeth a poster at BR dot com, and then agreed to by a major reviewer there: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=6265031&postcount=107
Vincent

 

[haineshisway]

It's a shame that Robert Harris "doesn't quite get" Blu-ray. So sayeth a poster at BR dot com, and then agreed to by a major reviewer there: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=6265031&postcount=107
Vincent

Right, Robert Harris doesn't "get" Blu-ray, but they do. It is to laugh. What did these people do before Blu-ray? I know what Robert Harris did before Blu-ray. The sum total of these people's knowledge is - wait for it - what they've read on the Internet. They have no experience with film or transfers or restoration or BLU-RAY. But they're experts, every one of them. Pro-Bassoonist is their reviewer Dr. Svet whatever-his-name is. What are his credentials, I wonder? This is a guy who consistently "reviews" black-and-white films and talks about how great the color scale is. Now, yes black and white and gray are colors, but no reviewer in history has ever said a black and white film had great color - color talk is reserved for color films.