5 channel DYI? (1 Viewer)

[Michael R Price]

In comparison to the Kit281, I thought A/V-2s sounded weak and distorted in the lower ranges. If you are looking for powerful movie sound or loud music they are probably not a good choice even if you will use a subwoofer. They seem more like a small scale music speaker to me (and they do a very good job of that). I would agree with James that smaller speakers don't sound very "full" in the midrange despite perhaps having better clarity.

 

[JohanD]

That's why you get a subwoofer.

 

[JohanD]

Anyone else have this experience?? I am interested in some DIY 5.1 also and was thinking about GR.. but might rethink if it's weak in the midrange..
(they have a new surround out too, new model of AV-1)

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/v...ic.php?t=10915

 

[Darren_T]

My AV2's crank like nobodies business. They won't put out as much as the Kit281's but they are by no means a small scale music speaker. I have 200 watts going to mine and my ears will give out before the speakers do and I like my music loud. They sound great crossed over at 60Hz. I've experienced no distorted lower range sound. I have great impact with movies also. It sounds like someone was listening to a poor setup.

The AV2's are by no means weak in the midrange...quite the contrary as this is their strong point. They extend down to 55Hz quite nicely then start dropping off which is perfect for mating with a subwoofer.

 

[Allen Ross]

James, the problem with a 15" two way is that the LF become very directional at in the mid range, unless you cross them low, 500-700hz, And the only tweeter i know of that i would ever cross that low is the Selenium 440ti. So thats why its so common that you see 15" three way, but thats just my two cents.

 

[Ryan T]

I just have AV 1's and i'm able to play them well past a comfortable level without any problems at all. They have an F3 of 55Hz and I have my sub crossed over at 55Hz. They blend very well with each other. The only way AV 2's could be even considered small scale music speakers is if its a HUGE room or you want to be able to hit concert levels :rolleyes

Sure the 281's will play louder but I would be surprised if they had the same detail and smoothness as the AV 1's or 2's. I'm by no means saying the 281's are bad but from what i've heard people generally say they are a little harsher and the AV 2's have a cleaner more laid back sound.

But since I havnt heard both i can just offer what i've heard from my AV 1's. Which is very clean and smooth mids. Some say they are bass shy but I find them very suitable for my needs when teamed up with my tempest.

Ryan

 

[Michael R Price]

I see my opinion's a little controversial.

There are a lot of people say things like: "my ears will give out before the speakers do." I think this is a misunderstanding of distortion. (Distortion of misunderstanding?) To a large extent our ears perceive distortion as loudness. The acoustic power our ears can handle while still feeling comfortable is absurd (I know from experience), and only gigantic speakers can actually produce "painfully loud" undistorted sounds. With pretty much all hi-fi speakers this statement is a giveaway showing that the speakers make uncomfortable sounding distortion at higher SPLs. If you like to listen to music that loud, then don't you think it would sound better with speakers that had less distortion at those levels?

There is no question the A/V-2 has clearer, more open sounding midrange than the Kit281 which is said to be hollow, stuffy, muddy or congested sounding. It isn't a big enough difference to outweigh the dynamics thing, IMO. The general treble quality is similar and the A/V-2 has less of it (good or bad depending on taste).

 

[ThomasW]

Different folks, different strokes.

Having built my first HT in 1988, I and most HT owners I know, consider the ability to reproduce 'reference' levels as mandatory. While I wouldn't call my HT 'huge', I find a pair of these adequate for my needs.... :wink:

 

[Christpher_S]

Umm, what is that? Does it produce sound or just scare little kids?

-Chris

 

[ThomasW]

Chris,

It's a pair of Acoustat 1+1 electrostatic panels, with a line array of 16 leaf tweeters in between.

Actually it's currently being updated with the addition of a planar magnetic midrange panel. The system is quad-amped. Here's a pic of the prototype setup. It's 93" tall, and it's ALL about displacement .....

 

[Ryan T]

Thats cool but do you have any measurements that show at what level the AV 2's start to distort vs the 281's? When you compared the 281's to the AV 2's where they in a same room with the same equipment? Because your saying that the 281's have greater dynamics and that the AV 2s "sounded weak and distorted in the lower ranges" and "They seem more like a small scale music speaker to me". I'm just wondering if it was even a fair comparison or even an A/B at all. As far as I know the 281's could have way more dynamic range but you make it sound like the AV series is a little 4" full range in a cardboard box . Where as experiance with my AV 1's says that is not the case at all. I've listened to the Telarc 1812 overture through my AV 1's and my tempest at very high levels and it didnt sound strained at all. I realize very high levels doesnt say much without actually knowing the SPL numbers, but my point is thats a recording that has VERY high dynamics and the AV 1's handled it very well at much higher than normal listening levels.




Ryan

 

[John E Janowitz]

I find myself agreeing with Dan here. The 3way system is much better for a horizontal center channel than an MTM on it's side. Your horizontal off axis is directly related to the distance between the woofers and their diameter(which alone plays a part in the distance between centers).

I'm just finishing up a 5 speaker system using a pair of Silver Flute 6.5" drivers with a Morel MDM55 and MDT30 between them. The MDM55 allows me to bring the xover frequency down below the point where comb filtering begins.

Another nice option is with the Seas Coax drivers. The tweeter being in the middle gives it even dispersion in all directions. The T18RE COAX/TVFC is apparently much better sounding than the others, and the tweeter has a lower Fs giving you more room to play with the Xover frequency. I haven't used it yet myself. I used the standard P17RE COAX TV in my Center Point cubes, but may switch to the T18 soon. If you need more output capability you can always add a woofer or two along with the coax driver. A woofer on each side works well, and with the 6.5" coax in the middle you can take your Xover very low.

IT's not that an MTM can't be done well for that application, but you need a tweeter you can take very low. You really need something useable down to 600hz or so which severely limits your choices.

John

 

[ThomasW]

Ryan,
Did you read the first posts in this thread?

If one has even a basic understanding of acoustics and loudspeaker design, it's blatantly obvious how and why the AV series will distort before a K281.

The K281 have about 2.4 times more radiating area than the any of the AV MTM designs, and about 5 times more radiating area than a AV1. So comparing the K281 and the GR-Research speakers is like comparing a V8 to a 4 cylinder engine.

 

[Ryan T]

Maybe so but the argument wasnt if the 281's could play louder it was if the AV 2's were weak speakers. I've been able to play mine (AV 1's) at what I would consider very loud levels (much higher than normal listening levels) and they didnt show signs off compression or distortion. Maybe my ears arnt good enough to hear it. I was just very annoyed that someone said the AV 2's were small scale music speakers. That really seems to be cutting them way short of what they can do.


Ryan

 

[ThomasW]

Ryan,

One must consider all this in context.

Some people think a Subaru WRX is a good sports car.
Other people think a 'vette' is a good sports car.
Still others think an Enzo Ferrari is a good sports car.

The same is true with speakers...........

People in audio for the long haul, don't give much consideration to small midwoofer based 2-ways. They're fine starter systems. But tend end up in the bedroom, as the listener, his tastes, and budget matures.

Note this isn't a criticism, it's just a fact of life. And one reason why GR-Research has started offering much larger speakers in the last couple years.

 

[Darren_T]

This is funny, everyone is assuming everyone else has no idea what a good speaker sounds like. Subjective...

Anyway, My AV2's will play at reference levels all day long without strain. They sound crisp, clean, and very accurate. In my tests the Kit281 did have more impact but in my opinion the AV2's were much more detailed and accurate with quite a bit of impact, just less than the Kit281's.

To say the AV2's are a small scale music speaker is just crazy. These are excellent performers. The Kit281's are also, it depends on what you are going for. My home theater will go waaaaay louder than is comfortable for anyone I've met yet without distortion or any audible strain. Proper calibration is key for any system.

I'm not saying one kit is better than the other. I'm just saying don't discount the AV2's just because they are smaller than the Kit281, especially from what has been said in this thread.

If you want your system to blow your hair back then neither of these kits are for you... give ThomasW a visit I'd love to hear...uh FEEL his setup!

I've A/B'd both of these speakers so I'm not just speculating.

 

[Darren_T]

Oh, and my idea of automotive excellence is a 65 AC Cobra

 

[James W. Johnson]

Maybe I am not understanding what you mean but i'd think it would apply more so to home theater due to some of the demanding software out there.

 

[Darren_T]

Well, my response wasn't to a question of which is more demanding but I'll answer that.

In home theater you have 5 or more speakers. The center channel handles 80% of the dialog etc... The left and right handle most of the effects with the center. The surrounds are effects speakers for the most part. Music is 2 channel without a sub if you are a purist. This means full range towers or the like. You will be asking waaaaay more of these two speakers in music than a 5.1 HT system. The sub takes away the low frequency burden and with home theater you aren't sitting there listening criticaly and the effects are divided between 5 different speakers which are each perfectly capable of handling the frequency range handed them - 20kHz down to 60Hz in my case and the sub 60Hz down.

Home theater is mostly dialogue and sporadic effects... not an orchestra of sound. The speakers are rarely asked to reproduce the full spectrum of an orchestra all at once.

I'm sure this will be up for debate but that's my story and I'm stickin to it I guess it all depends on what music you listen to also.

Not sure if I articulated that well.

 

[Martice]

You answered the question quite well. As I've written in my review of the original AV1+, I've owned PSB Goldi's, Paradigm Ref 100's and I've heard the Kit 281's numerous times.

Simply put, the 281's are better dynamic speakers than the AV2's. Not even close and they do HT and music very well. However, when it comes to tonal accuracy, I have to give the nod to the AV2's in HT or music.