$10k golden ears AMP challenge!

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by glen donald, Oct 31, 2002.

  1. glen donald

    glen donald Extra

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    Does it matter if the challenge has been posted somewhere before? There are millions of people who claim to hear HUGE differences b/w amp-X and amp-Y. Give them the chance to make some money or in other words “put up or shut up”.
    When you setup a challenge like this, you truly hope to find a real “golden ear” – by design, not accident. BUT he says, if one is confident enough, lets turn it from a “challenge” into a “bet” – your money against his, 6 out of 6 is all that’s required. People tend to go into their shells when they have to put their money where their mouth is.
    One very important people should understand; the amp challenge was to ask “big amp” manufacturers to “back up their big claims” (He calls it “Marketing BS”[​IMG]) as well as audiophiles who believes in such “marketing voodoos”. He has dented (and shut up) a many egos over the years, and this is one of the reasons some discredit and scrutinise his challenge rather than prove themselves, as someone said, “too much ego at stake”.
    Having said that differences in amps aren’t necessarily audible, it doesn’t mean you should buy the “cheapo”. Factors such as build-quality, warranty, quality of parts, a company’s reputation, resale value and personal preferences (gotta have what looks cool...ect) are reasons for choosing amps, NO NOT choose amps based on someone telling you “marketing BS” such as “this amp blows away that amp easily..”
    One more thing to add;
    I think Richard Clarke has another challenge called the “Hearing Cables challenge”. I think that’s self explanatory[​IMG] That’s another challenge that audiophiles and “expensive cabling company pty.ltd” really hates. You know what to do if you think you can hear expensive audio cables[​IMG]
     
  2. Lin Park

    Lin Park Second Unit

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    Andre and Robert,

    Do me a favor - take a coin and try to get it to come up 6 times in a row as heads today and let me know how many times it takes you to do that. I'll bet you it will be much more than 64. You guys can't apply your statistics and mathematics to REAL world events - it just doesn't work that way. These things are great for theoretical discussions but applying them to this type of situation is a joke. Guessing would yield a 50% hit rate but he requires that you get it right 100% of the time in HIS environment. I'm not that familiar with statistics but isn't 100% a bit high - what do most companies use when testing new drugs against a placebo?

    I am well aware of the fact that the odds are much better for him with 12 tests but what I was trying to say is that he is virtually claiming that it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell the difference between two amps and then setting up conditions to this test which make it astronomically IMPOSSIBLE to pass.

    Just as no one has volunteered here to take his test, I have not received any offers to bring a solid state amp over to my house and take my test. And I'm not setting a limit of 12 times, I'm saying I can tell them apart EVERY time (and so could my wife for that matter).

    Just out of curiosity, what type of home setup does this fella have who's making the challenge?

    Cheers,
    Lin
     
  3. Larry B

    Larry B Screenwriter

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    Lin:
    For reasons that have more to do with convenience than anything else, most people regard as "statistically signficant" the occurrence of an event for which the probability is less than 5%. (This is usually written as p
     
  4. Yogi

    Yogi Screenwriter

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    Woww!!! Well said Larry. It almost seems to me that the test is designed for the taker to fail. Whoever this guy is, is out to prove that there is no difference between amps because he believes so, and he has designed a test to prove his point.

    I think its much easier to design a test when you already have an outcome in mind.

    For me its not just the subtle differences between the two amps in the first two minutes but the long term differences over months and years. Even when the amps are only slightly apart in sound some amps are easier to listen to over extended periods of time while others aren't. To me that counts.

    MHO.
     
  5. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    I have participated in the past in these A/B tests under studio conditions with other recording engineers and we were able to clearly demonstrate sonic differences between amps. In fact, that is often how we chose some of the playback and monitoring equipment at Chesky Records in the 1990s as we were formulating our methodology.

    The problem with the above challenge as outlined, apart from numerous conditions and restrictions, is that the listener does not have time to live with and listen to the amps in question for extended periods of time. That makes it awfully hard to hear the subtle differences that many amps have.

    So I have to agree with Yogi that the best way is to listen to amps over a longer period of time.

    With respect to Larry, statistics can certainly underpin the test in a clear fashion, however I find a problem with some of the math here. There seems to me to be the very BIG assumption that scientific differences can account for all sonic differences.

    My 20 years in pro and home audio (14 album credits) tell me that this is simply not true. Science cannot explain everything. Texture, tonality, and midrange purity as well as soundstage are not explained by any amplifier stats I know of. I wish it were that simple, it would simplify my purchasing greatly. I have no bias against science either as I operate a small AI software company as my day job. The best combination in AI is a blend of "art and science".

    The best thing one can do is borrow equipment from a good independent dealer and judge by your own tastes.

    By the way, why are Krell amps excluded? Should the test not be open to everything? Why should any amp be excluded?
     
  6. JaleelK

    JaleelK Second Unit

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  7. Larry B

    Larry B Screenwriter

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    Yogi:
     
  8. Terry St

    Terry St Second Unit

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  9. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    I also have a question about the funds provided by the contest.

    What form is the $10,000 dollars in?

    Do we have the data on what bank can verify that the funds exist?

    Can we see written proof posted on the website?

     
  10. Larry B

    Larry B Screenwriter

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    lee:

     
  11. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    Larry,

    Sorry - I was not being clear. I made this comment apart from the statistics involved and I do think 100% is far above significant based on my understanding of math.

    I inferred correctly I believe that this assumption was being made based on the scientific conditions of the amplifier test posted at the beginning of the thread.
     
  12. Larry B

    Larry B Screenwriter

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    Lee:
     
  13. Larry B

    Larry B Screenwriter

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    Lee:

     
  14. RobertR

    RobertR Lead Actor

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    Which (unless he's saying that the differences involve more than just the amps) clearly implies that getting 24 out of 24 is no problem.
     
  15. Larry B

    Larry B Screenwriter

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    Robert:

    The absurdity of (most) audio magazine reviews is almost beyond description.

    Larry
     
  16. Larry B

    Larry B Screenwriter

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    Robert:

     
  17. RobertR

    RobertR Lead Actor

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  18. RobertR

    RobertR Lead Actor

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  19. Larry B

    Larry B Screenwriter

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    Robert:

     
  20. Saurav

    Saurav Cinematographer

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