Tron Surround (1 Viewer)

Since it was the anniversary of Tron, I decided to watch it. But the 5.1 mix doesn't sound right. Maybe it's not supposed to be surround ? I tried watching in All Channel Stereo, and it sounded much better. What audio did Tron have when it came out in 1982 ? I've read Dolby Stereo, but what is that exactly ?

70mm Dolby Stereo Six-Track.

So, it should be listened to in stereo ?

Blu-ray, or DVD?

Dolby Stereo was a trademark, not necessarily 2.0 or 2.1. Six-track has most likely been re-encoded to 5.1 for home release (a few DVDs in my collection have 4.0 or 3.1 or other idiosyncratic mix based on the original tracks).

Wikipedia can probably give you the historical perspective. I remember that Star Wars was released initially in San Francisco in 70mm Dolby six-track, though the later 35mm six-track (?) cut released further into the summer was the 'preferred' finished sound edit that Ben Burtt and Lucas were happy with. I believe that's the AC-3 soundtrack which was released on the LaserDisc definitive edition of the original film.

Blu-ray. Though I imagine that the dvd would sound better because it's not DTS....

I like DTS better as a higher bandwidth audio stream, but the real issue may be the remix and encoding. Look at the Blu-ray.com review and forum discussions, I believe there was healthy criticism of the TRON BD "restoration" that removed the "flicker" frames inserted in post (1981) to cover up some of the issues with the visual FX methods used in "lighting" and coloring the live action actors. That flickering was part of the finished film, and added to its "look." I think my brain would tell me something was very wrong if they weren't there.

=> Keeping my DVD.

I HATE DTS. The voices are almost always too soft. People keep telling me that it's not because it's DTS, which is just a codec....or other such nonsense. They say it's in the audio mix. I don't have any problems with Dolby 5.1 or TrueHD. It's always DTS or DTS-HD that gives me problems.

Back to Tron...several scenes bug me because of the DTS. First, when Sark is stepping onto the platform to speak to MCP. When the light beams surround Sark, there is little "ping" noises as the beams appear. You can't hear these pings when you listen in surround. The movie sounds great when listened to in All Channel Surround mode. DTS mixes are all f-ed up. Center channel is set to +8, left and right channels are both +6, rears are set a few notches below that. Dolby 5.1 sounds good. TrueHD (Batman 1989, for example) also sounds good. But when I try to watch Green Lantern, Tron, Jurassic Park, or any of the other DTS discs I have, the effects are too loud and the voices are too soft or the voices are correct and the effects knock you on your backside. Maybe my ears have trouble with certain audio frequencies....

You've made this claim about DTS in other threads. You've been told before that there is practically no difference in quality between DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby Digital TrueHD. I would be willing to bet that the problem lies in your equipment. I would venture to guess that your equipment doesn't decode Master Audio, but instead downconverts it into something else, and does a very poor job of it.

my equipment DOES decode Master Audio. If there was no difference between DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby Digital TrueHD...then why can I hear Dolby just fine and the voices are at a normal volume. My receiver isn't ancient, you know. Last time I checked, Onkyo was a pretty good company....

Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, DTS-HD MA,... are all just codecs. You can't blame them for reduction in frequency response, range, dynamic response ... unless you want to look at the technical specs, but then you'll see that DTS has higher bandwidth and is capable of MORE information than DD so how could it be less?

What you seem to be hearing is almost certainly a result of the mix, or the playback equipment. So ... yell at the studio techs who remaster these films in home video codecs, or yell at your equipment. Blaming DTS for "softness" (whatever that means) is like blaming the chocolate in your milkshake for giving you brain freeze.

I know they're just codecs. But please explain why it's only DTS that I have a problem with....I can watch a movie with Dolby 5.1 and it sounds just fine and I can hear the voices just fine. But that same movie in DTS, the voices are always hard to hear.

I agree that it's the mixes fault. But it's always the mixes used for DTS that's the problem. I never have a problem hearing the voices in Dolby tracks. My equipment is just fine.

Yes, DTS had higher bandwidth...but is that any reason to mix the effects and voices so you can't hear the voices properly ? Yes, I blame DTS. I've NEVER had a problem with Dolby.

And...I hate chocolate...

My venturing guess...

Low power AVR feeding inefficient speakers...

Clipping like crazy...to keep up.

Spottedfeather said:

I know they're just codecs. But please explain why it's only DTS that I have a problem with....I can watch a movie with Dolby 5.1 and it sounds just fine and I can hear the voices just fine. But that same movie in DTS, the voices are always hard to hear.

I agree that it's the mixes fault. But it's always the mixes used for DTS that's the problem. I never have a problem hearing the voices in Dolby tracks. My equipment is just fine.

Yes, DTS had higher bandwidth...but is that any reason to mix the effects and voices so you can't hear the voices properly ? Yes, I blame DTS. I've NEVER had a problem with Dolby.

And...I hate chocolate...

Click to expand...

schan1269 said:

My venturing guess...

Low power AVR feeding inefficient speakers...

Clipping like crazy...to keep up.

Click to expand...

So if I understand correctly, this only exhibits with DVDs playing DTS tracks of the same movie which also has a DD track (provide titles, please, maybe we've got the same one and can test ourselves; use blu-ray.com to determine specific disc releases). And this does NOT occur with DTS-HD (MA) compared with Dolby TrueHD BDs? And your AVR is in STRAIGHT mode or the equivalent? (Better still: Pure Direct or similar, but with Yamaha you can't verify the signal input on-screen or on the display due to them turning off in Pure Direct.)


Are you using PCM or Bitsteream for discs out of your player? Can you switch your player audio out to Bitstream? This enables you to see any flags if your AVR supports it.


Do you test this with multiple inputs, e.g. disc player into HDMI 1, some other device that can pass DD and DTS into HDMI 2?


And you're playing through 5.1 speakers, correct?


I know that DD carries a "dialog flag" that can boost or attenuate (in some case, I see dialog -2 or something) the center channel/dialog, but not sure about DTS. Anyone?



This is an old post on C|Net, but KarlHenri explains that the greater dynamic range of DTS can sometimes result in softer dialog or effects at lower volume. In that case you'd want to use your AVR's adaptive dynamic range control or whatever they call it that narrows the content's volume range at reduced playback volume levels.


... OH. This post on blu-ray.com should shed some light on dialog normalization. I'm reading this article myself...

... DTS soundtracks, unlike Dolby Digital, are not attenuated by 4 dB by the receiver/decoder and as a result DTS movies play 4dB louder than Dolby Digital movies.

Click to expand...

No. It's only on blu-ray. I don't have any DTS dvds....for this very specific reason.

Jurassic Park - with the effects at a good level, you can barely hear the conversation in the trailer at the dig site,or the conversation while eating ice cream, or the conversation after the fence shock...


Green Lantern - the conversation in the bedroom in the beginning.


Tron - can't hear the effects of the wall surrounding Sark while talking to MCP. Conversation with Flynn when Sark's ship appears.


It happens with both DTS and DTS-HD Master Audio. I can hear TrueHD just fine. I'm listening in DTS-HD Master Audio listening mode. If I switch to Direct listening mode, it's only slightly better, but still tough to hear the voices.

I bitstream. DTS-HD Master Audio shows up as that on my receiver. I have my PS3 and blu-ray player both hooked up and both has this problem.

Yeah, I have a 5.1 system. And adaptive dynamic range control isn't on my system.


there was this quote..

DTS soundtracks, unlike Dolby Digital, are not attenuated by 4 dB by the receiver/decoder and as a result DTS movies play 4dB louder than Dolby Digital movies.


what does this mean and what can I do about it ?

ChromeJob said:

So if I understand correctly, this only exhibits with DVDs playing DTS tracks of the same movie which also has a DD track (provide titles, please, maybe we've got the same one and can test ourselves; use blu-ray.com to determine specific disc releases). And this does NOT occur with DTS-HD (MA) compared with Dolby TrueHD BDs? And your AVR is in STRAIGHT mode or the equivalent? (Better still: Pure Direct or similar, but with Yamaha you can't verify the signal input on-screen or on the display due to them turning off in Pure Direct.)


Are you using PCM or Bitsteream for discs out of your player? Can you switch your player audio out to Bitstream? This enables you to see any flags if your AVR supports it.


Do you test this with multiple inputs, e.g. disc player into HDMI 1, some other device that can pass DD and DTS into HDMI 2?


And you're playing through 5.1 speakers, correct?


I know that DD carries a "dialog flag" that can boost or attenuate (in some case, I see dialog -2 or something) the center channel/dialog, but not sure about DTS. Anyone?



This is an old post on C|Net, but KarlHenri explains that the greater dynamic range of DTS can sometimes result in softer dialog or effects at lower volume. In that case you'd want to use your AVR's adaptive dynamic range control or whatever they call it that narrows the content's volume range at reduced playback volume levels.

Click to expand...

The only people that have EVER complain about DTS/DTS-HDMA are...

People with low end gear (the Onkyo 3500 qualifies here).

You don't have...

Audyssey
THX
Enough power to keep from clipping.

Spottedfeather said:

No. It's only on blu-ray. I don't have any DTS dvds....for this very specific reason.
Jurassic Park - with the effects at a good level, you can barely hear the conversation in the trailer at the dig site,or the conversation while eating ice cream, or the conversation after the fence shock...

Green Lantern - the conversation in the bedroom in the beginning.

Tron - can't hear the effects of the wall surrounding Sark while talking to MCP. Conversation with Flynn when Sark's ship appears.

It happens with both DTS and DTS-HD Master Audio. I can hear TrueHD just fine. I'm listening in DTS-HD Master Audio listening mode. If I switch to Direct listening mode, it's only slightly better, but still tough to hear the voices.

I bitstream. DTS-HD Master Audio shows up as that on my receiver. I have my PS3 and blu-ray player both hooked up and both has this problem.

Yeah, I have a 5.1 system. And adaptive dynamic range control isn't on my system.

there was this quote..
DTS soundtracks, unlike Dolby Digital, are not attenuated by 4 dB by the receiver/decoder and as a result DTS movies play 4dB louder than Dolby Digital movies.

what does this mean and what can I do about it ?

Click to expand...

It means that DTS audio tracks may be a wee bit louder, and some users may turn volume down and then realize that in addition to the entire audio being quieter (or about same as DD), some of the effects and dialog seem different.

schan1269 said:

The only people that have EVER complain about DTS/DTS-HDMA are...

People with low end gear (the Onkyo 3500 qualifies here).

You don't have...

Audyssey
THX
Enough power to keep from clipping.

Click to expand...

What would be a good receiver, then ? Is there something 500 dollars or less that would work ?

There are numerous AVR under $200 that would work.

I'd search A4L. Look for Dolby Volume. DV isn't a DRC per se, but will mitigate some of the issue.

Biggest improvement would be much better front three speakers. Quite frankly...the speakers in the 3500 suck.

Is the system better than listening to a TV? Sure it is. But so is a pair of $30 computer speakers.

If Sony still had the SS center speaker new...I'd recommend the SB1000* bookshelf(cheap...but not junk). If you care to peruse eBay for a Sony center first. The 1000 is available new. You can buy those any time.

Next is the BIC DV62*. The 62 center is quite big. If too big(for where you have to put it)...52 center.

Your issue is the sub. That AVR and sub are tied at the hip. 1 goes, both go.

What I recommend(and I've recommended this other places you brought this "DTS problem" up) is replacing your front three with better speakers.

Then replace the AVR/sub together.

Better speakers will yield a bigger improvement on less up front money. Around September you'll start seeing "X AVR with Y subwoofer" deals around $300.

*the main difference 1000 to 62 is in overall efficiency. The Sony is 87. Not great...but better than the dismal efficiency you have now. The woofer is better than the $63/pair(Amazon today) would suggest.

The 62 is $125(higher than usual...) per pair. But...it is 92 db efficient.

5db is huge. The DV62 is 10(ish) db more efficient than your current speakers. That means what your current speakers accomplish on 10 watts. The 62 will accomplish on 1.

10 vs 1 will eliminate clipping problems. Not to mention, the sound emanating from the 1000/62 won't be a garbled mess.

And I just looked it up, again...

The speakers contained in the 3500(same ones used in the 3400/3700) are...

2 pounds
Full range 3" driver(number 1 problem)
80 or 81 db efficient.

Almost anything(even the Energy Take* or Klipsch Quintet) would be an enormous improvement.

I wouldn't stay "this small". But it would still be an improvement. There are even some Polk RM85 out there

*Take is no longer available "new" without a sub. You just would leave it in the box...or resell it locally and continue with the one included with the 3500.

I'm sure you're trying to help, but I didn't understand any of that. What does the sub have to do with not being able to hear the dialogue ? A4L just sent me to car sites. The SB1000 is 1000 dollars. that's hardly cheap.

What speakers are you recommending ? They would work with my receiver ?

What would be a good receiver that would help ? I'd like Audyssey so I can fiddle with the range of DTS.