Jump to content



Sign up for a free account to remove the pop-up ads

Signing up for an account is fast and free. As a member you can join in the conversation, enter contests and remove the pop-up ads that guests get. Click here to create your free account.

Photo
- - - - -

A Few Thoughts About....Blu-ray/DVD FLIPPER DISCS


  • You cannot start a new topic
  • Please log in to reply
270 replies to this topic

#1 of 271 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

Ronald Epstein

    Studio Mogul



  • 42,067 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 03 1997

Posted January 13 2010 - 10:36 AM


 

Ronald J Epstein
Home Theater Forum co-owner

 

 Click Here for the latest/hottest Blu-ray Preorders  Click Here for our complete Blu-ray review archive

 Click Here for our complete 3D Blu-ray review archive Click Here for our complete DVD review archive

 Click Here for Blu-Ray Preorder Release Schedule  Click Here for forum posting rules and regulations


#2 of 271 ONLINE   Scott Merryfield

Scott Merryfield

    Executive Producer



  • 10,890 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 16 1998
  • LocationMichigan

Posted January 13 2010 - 10:50 AM

Even if there are no playback issues, I still do not care for the flipper concept.  It is difficult to read the small type labels printed on the inner ring in order to determine which side to play, and it is easy to get finger prints on the top side of the disc when removing or replacing the disc in its case. I much prefer Disney's concept of simply including a separate DVD disc in the package when they decide to offer "dual format" releases. Since the current U.S. box set release of the Bourne Trilogy is ridiculously priced and I had no desire to own these flippers, I bought the U.K release of the trilogy from Amazon.uk for $35. It's a shame that sometimes our only purchasing option for the product we truly want is overseas.

#3 of 271 OFFLINE   Scott-S

Scott-S

    Test Subject



  • 2,065 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 08 2001
  • Real Name:Scott Sturdevant
  • LocationThe Land of Zion

Posted January 13 2010 - 11:09 AM

I will say it again, just in case someone from Universal reads this:

I will not knowingly buy a double sided disc.
 


If it is double sided, I will just rent it.

There are so many negatives and the only positive for going to Double Sided disc. The one plus is more money for Universals bottom line.

-----
Scott

View My DVD Collection
Stop the on-screen Bugs!!!!!!

#4 of 271 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

Ronald Epstein

    Studio Mogul



  • 42,067 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 03 1997

Posted January 13 2010 - 11:12 AM

Scott,

Appreciate your response.

Can you be more specific?  The discs haven't even been
released to the general public yet and Universal is claiming
they have been manufactured to the highest standards.

Based on that, what specifically are you citing as being
"so many negatives"?

 

Ronald J Epstein
Home Theater Forum co-owner

 

 Click Here for the latest/hottest Blu-ray Preorders  Click Here for our complete Blu-ray review archive

 Click Here for our complete 3D Blu-ray review archive Click Here for our complete DVD review archive

 Click Here for Blu-Ray Preorder Release Schedule  Click Here for forum posting rules and regulations


#5 of 271 OFFLINE   Mike Frezon

Mike Frezon

    Studio Mogul



  • 31,577 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 09 2001
  • LocationRensselaer, NY

Posted January 13 2010 - 11:40 AM

My biggest concern would be that pricing wouldn't be affected by the process. 

In other words, the flipper disc would need to be the same price as what the Blu-ray-only disc would be.

I have the same concern about WHV's announcement to make all new release Blu-ray titles "combo packs."  All things being equal (price-wise), I like WHV's idea much better.

There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself.Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!


HTF Rules | HTF Mission Statement | Father of the Bride

Dieting with my Dog & Heart to Heart/Hand in Paw by Peggy Frezon


#6 of 271 OFFLINE   Scott-S

Scott-S

    Test Subject



  • 2,065 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 08 2001
  • Real Name:Scott Sturdevant
  • LocationThe Land of Zion

Posted January 13 2010 - 11:49 AM

Ron, my concerns are mainly the issues of not being able to read which side is which and not being able to protect both sides of the discs from damage/fingerprints etc. But I am also not convinced that they can produce these reliably. They never were able to do it with HD-DVD, or even normal DVDs, so I seriously doubt these new hybrids will be any different.


-----
Scott

View My DVD Collection
Stop the on-screen Bugs!!!!!!

#7 of 271 OFFLINE   cafink

cafink

    Producer



  • 3,045 posts
  • Join Date: Apr 19 1999

Posted January 13 2010 - 11:59 AM

Thanks for bringing some much-needed level-headedness to the discussion, Ron.  Many of the comments in previous threads about these flippers were ridiculous. 

Personally, I've never had any playback problems with the DVD/HD-DVD combo discs, DVD-18s, or the CD/DVD "dual discs" (though those still kind of bothered me simply because the CD side didn't conform to the CD specifications).  I recall that a number of early DVD-9s had reports of "DVD rot" (though again, I never experienced any problems with them, personally) but I never heard anyone calling for the elimination of DVD-9s. 

I must concede that the one disadvantage that these discs do have is the small size of the print on their labels.  I can see that being a real issue under certain conditions or for someone with eyesight problems.  For me, though, this minor inconvenience is outweighed by the convenience of having both versions of the movie on a single disc.
  Thanks again for your thoughts, Ron.
 

 


#8 of 271 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

Ronald Epstein

    Studio Mogul



  • 42,067 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 03 1997

Posted January 13 2010 - 12:19 PM

May I address the concerns being brought up
regarding small print on these discs.

The scary picture of me holding one of these
discs does not do justice to the way these
discs are marked.

The Blu-ray side is usually the side facing up
when you remove it from the spindle.  Furthermore
it has a distinct color ring around the inner
hole that indicates it is Blu-ray.  Of course,
this may not be apparent the very first time
most people see these discs, but it will become
quite recognizable for future purchases.

Mind you, I'm not going to sit here and defend
this format on every level.  I also prefer having
two separate discs.  I just felt that these flipper
discs have gotten a lot of unfair flack that dates
back to technology that is no longer around. The
studio has gone to great lengths to address your
concerns, assure quality, and I felt that it was
only fair that I give it a fair lookover.  I'm satisfied.

 

Ronald J Epstein
Home Theater Forum co-owner

 

 Click Here for the latest/hottest Blu-ray Preorders  Click Here for our complete Blu-ray review archive

 Click Here for our complete 3D Blu-ray review archive Click Here for our complete DVD review archive

 Click Here for Blu-Ray Preorder Release Schedule  Click Here for forum posting rules and regulations


#9 of 271 OFFLINE   cafink

cafink

    Producer



  • 3,045 posts
  • Join Date: Apr 19 1999

Posted January 13 2010 - 12:23 PM

I'm embarrassed that I didn't think of using color to differentiate the two sides.  Use the distinctive blue that's associated with Blu-ray for the Blu-ray side, and some contrasting color for the DVD side, and there shouldn't be any problem.  It's not like there's any other information that the label needs to convey other than "this side is Blu-ray, that side is DVD."  This pretty much eliminates the one reservation I had about these discs.

 

 


#10 of 271 OFFLINE   Mike Frezon

Mike Frezon

    Studio Mogul



  • 31,577 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 09 2001
  • LocationRensselaer, NY

Posted January 13 2010 - 12:52 PM

Color coding sure would be a simple solution for these 50+ year old eyes!  /img/vbsmilies/htf/laugh.gif I'm still going to watch the pricing issue closely...but not too closely because of the aforementioned nearsightedness!  /img/vbsmilies/htf/wink.gif

There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself.Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!


HTF Rules | HTF Mission Statement | Father of the Bride

Dieting with my Dog & Heart to Heart/Hand in Paw by Peggy Frezon


#11 of 271 OFFLINE   Paul Arnette

Paul Arnette

    Screenwriter



  • 2,616 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 16 2002

Posted January 13 2010 - 01:15 PM

Oddly enough, I never had any trouble with HD DVD/DVD Combo Discs, but I had a ton of problems with DVD-18.  That alone is enough to make me steer clear of similar releases, but the additional issue I have with these type of discs is that I find they come scratched far more frequently than 'traditional' discs.  I found the scratching problem occurred frequently with both HD DVD/DVD Combo Discs and DVD-18.

In the end, I'll say offering discs in this format wouldn't necessarily preclude me buying them if I felt the title was a 'must own', but if it weren't it would probably be enough for me to give it a 'pass'.

Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal
, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

#12 of 271 OFFLINE   Jesse Skeen

Jesse Skeen

    Producer



  • 4,094 posts
  • Join Date: Apr 24 1999

Posted January 13 2010 - 01:31 PM

Is there ANY printing at all on the DVD side?  It doesn't look like it in the picture.  If Universal is reading this- it was a BIG mistake to not have any printing on the 2nd side of their discs- it just looks cheap putting a disc into your player with no visible label, you might be putting it in wrong side up!  Warner's recent 2-sided discs have been the same, and with the widescreen version on many older titles being on side B that means a lot of label-less discs!  This was a big step backwards from the already too-small printing, I had hoped they would use the entire center of the disc to print larger labeling on both sides, like the DVD/CD DualDiscs.

I'm a media geek so I'll at least buy the first Bourne movie on this format (even though I already have all 3 on HD-DVD!) to check it out- I bought the first DVD-18 (Aquaria) and the first combo HD-DVD disc- incidentally I now have EVERY HD-DVD combo title, but just got an HDTV this week so I'll finally get to start watching them!  I plan on watching both sides of each one, so we'll see how reliable they are.  I watched a few of the standard DVD sides on my old player with no problems.  Not ONE of the combo titles has any printing on the DVD side however- it just says "Reverse side standard DVD" or something like that.

I prefer 2-sided discs to 2 1-sided discs, but they should be labeled properly and of course they should WORK!  I'm wondering if any action was taken at the Technicolor pressing plant in Mexico- frankly, that was a disaster as I've had a number of defective discs in different formats that came from there.  I know the plant isn't located in Mexico because of the scenery either- most likely they paid as little as possible to have discs made there, and it shows.

Home video oddities, old commercials and other junk: http://www.youtube.com/user/eyeh8nbc

#13 of 271 OFFLINE   dpippel

dpippel

    HTF Premium Member



  • 3,422 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 24 2000
  • Real Name:Doug

Posted January 13 2010 - 01:39 PM

The two main concerns I have are: 1) Price. As long as we're not forced to pay more than a standard Blu-ray release would cost then I suppose I can live with no disc artwork. Most HD-DVD Combo discs carried premium price tags and that was a deal-breaker for me. If these BR flipper titles go down the same road and turn out to be more expensive then it's a no-sale for this consumer. Period. 2) Compatibility/longevity. We've been promised "compatibility" before on tricky technologies like this and have been unpleasantly surprised (DualDisc and DVD-18 come to mind). With Blu-ray ALREADY facing some consumer backlash due to issues such as slow loading players, firmware compatibility affecting disc playback, BD Live problems, etc., the format certainly doesn't need another potential negative mark on the scorecard. I hope the R&D people have truly done their due-diligence this time around. Which brings me to longevity. If the objective here is to get a disc on the market that consumers can also pop into their minivan/SUV DVD players and lend out to family and friends, I see problems. Dual-sided media is fragile by nature and WILL get scratched and scuffed with such use. That could spell big disappointment if Mom & Dad finally spring for that new Blu-ray player because they have some of these flipper titles, only to find that the BR side won't play properly because it's been scuffed around in the back seat of the car a few too many times. To me it seems that the reality of the intended use of these things isn't supported by their actual durability. The idea could backfire. There are my two cents FWIW.

Careful man, there's a beverage here!


#14 of 271 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

Ronald Epstein

    Studio Mogul



  • 42,067 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 03 1997

Posted January 13 2010 - 01:57 PM

Jesse, Please read my earlier posts.  These discs do have a color ring indicating which side is Blu-ray. The picture I took does not indicate that very well.  I will be happy to take an additional picture and upload it tomorrow morning to show all of you. I also hope that everyone will wait until they actually have these discs in their hands before they prejudge them.  Really, most of the complaints I see here are based upon an older method of manufacturing these dual-layered discs for a format that is now defunct. Momentarily, Adam Gregorich will post his report on the flipper discs he sent.  He tested them on more than one player and I think you will find his report to be very revealing.

 

Ronald J Epstein
Home Theater Forum co-owner

 

 Click Here for the latest/hottest Blu-ray Preorders  Click Here for our complete Blu-ray review archive

 Click Here for our complete 3D Blu-ray review archive Click Here for our complete DVD review archive

 Click Here for Blu-Ray Preorder Release Schedule  Click Here for forum posting rules and regulations


#15 of 271 OFFLINE   Adam Gregorich

Adam Gregorich

    Executive Producer



  • 15,034 posts
  • Join Date: Nov 20 1999
  • LocationThe Other Washington

Posted January 13 2010 - 02:35 PM

I was sent the same two discs that Ron was sent.  Please don't read anything into the fact the we didn't receive Bourne Ultimatum.  Rather than wait another 2-3 days for it to come in, they sent us the two titles they had.  I could pretty much quote Ron's entire post here and say "ditto" as his thoughts and feelings echo mine.  As to telling the sides apart, if you are looking at the side with all the writing as you are putting the disc into the tray DVD side up, so you are watching the Blu-ray side.  The ring is a bit washed out in Ron's picture; it is actually a blue colored ring.  Its actually pretty easy to tell which side is which looking at the disc itself.  The DVD side has the gold colored hue of a DVD-9 and the Blu-ray side has the blue/purple colored hue that a Blu-ray has.   I have a wide variety of playback devices, so I tested both the DVD and Blu-ray side of each disc in multiple players.  Each disc was actually tested 18 times.  12 on the DVD side and 6 on the Blu-ray side.  Based on some "thickness" issues with DVD/CD hybrid discs a while back I made sure to include slot load DVD and BD drives in the test.  While I list the equipment below I'll cut to the chase and say that I had NO problems of any kind with either disc on either player type.  Here are the players I used:    Tested the DVD side of both discs on: TV DVD Slot load combo: Westinghouse and Toshiba Standalone DVD player: Denon DVD-3910 Standalone Blu-ray player: Oppo BDP-83, Panasonic BD10, BD50, and DMP-B15 PC Drives: LG DVDBDHD DVD combo, HP DVDBD drive (slot load) The “some irony here devices”: XBOX360, Toshiba XA2 and HD-D2 HD DVD players   Tested the Blu-ray side of both discs on: Standalone Blu-ray player: Oppo BD-83, Panasonic BD10, BD50, and DMP-B15 PC Drives: LG DVDBDHD DVD combo, HP DVDBD drive I also did some checking and the BD side of the discs is 100% identical to the Blu-ray box set.   

#16 of 271 OFFLINE   Adam Gregorich

Adam Gregorich

    Executive Producer



  • 15,034 posts
  • Join Date: Nov 20 1999
  • LocationThe Other Washington

Posted January 13 2010 - 02:43 PM

As to this vs 2 disc DVD/BD sets, I can't speak for Universal as to why they are doing it this way.  They just reissued several catalog Blu-rays as two disc DVD/BD combo packs a few weeks ago with little fanfare and they are priced about the same as these flipper discs at Amazon.  During the format war I asked a BD exclusive studio why they weren't releasing 2 disc DVD/BD sets to compete with the combo discs.  I was told that there was some concern that consumers might sell or give away the DVD half of the set hurting DVD sales.   I have no idea if that is a factor or not for Universal in this case.

#17 of 271 OFFLINE   dpippel

dpippel

    HTF Premium Member



  • 3,422 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 24 2000
  • Real Name:Doug

Posted January 13 2010 - 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein /forum/thread/297010/a-few-thoughts-about-blu-ray-dvd-flipper-discs#post_3649124 I also hope that everyone will wait until they actually have these discs in their hands before they prejudge them.  Really, most of the complaints I see here are based upon an older method of manufacturing these dual-layered discs for a format that is now defunct.  
Ron, you asked for professional, polite feedback from members and we're giving that to you. Since 99% of us have never bought/used/held/smelled this new product, our concerns are (of course) based on the information that you've posted here and whatever we've gleaned from other sources. In my opinion skepticism about any new dual-sided disc format is valid and well-founded, based on historical precedent. Any real problems (or lack thereof) with these new flippers will only show up after they've actually been out in the field for a period of time and sold in some numbers. That's how new products get their real shakedown and this one will be no different. Only time will tell if it'll be successful.

Careful man, there's a beverage here!


#18 of 271 OFFLINE   CraigF

CraigF

    Screenwriter



  • 2,380 posts
  • Join Date: Nov 20 2002
  • Real Name:Craig
  • LocationToronto area, Canada

Posted January 13 2010 - 02:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich /forum/thread/297010/a-few-thoughts-about-blu-ray-dvd-flipper-discs#post_3649148

I was told that there was some concern that consumers might sell or give away the DVD half of the set hurting DVD sales.   I have no idea if that is a factor or not.

I am sure this is the primary factor. The only factor that makes any sense. Well, that and having two people potentially using the same purchase at the same time.

You either have a BD player in a location, or you don't. You take the disc format you need. Since both a BD and DVD can fit in a single-width BD case, space isn't a storage/transport issue if you need to take two discs. Etc. etc. We'll see how it works out. But as Universal even said, they're NOT doing this because customers were demanding it, or even responded positively with previous double-sided ventures.


#19 of 271 OFFLINE   KMR

KMR

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 128 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 18 2009

Posted January 13 2010 - 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by cafink /forum/thread/297010/a-few-thoughts-about-blu-ray-dvd-flipper-discs#post_3649068 It's not like there's any other information that the label needs to convey other than "this side is Blu-ray, that side is DVD."
Well, let's see, there's information such as...oh...the title of the disc.  If it's part of a multi-disc set, there's the number of the disc.  If it's part of a set with a special features disc, there's the identifier for such.  I've often seen two-sided discs with print that is very difficult to read.  When you're dealing with multiple discs, or if discs have similar titles, there's a lot of potential for users having a difficult time.

#20 of 271 OFFLINE   dpippel

dpippel

    HTF Premium Member



  • 3,422 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 24 2000
  • Real Name:Doug

Posted January 13 2010 - 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich /forum/thread/297010/a-few-thoughts-about-blu-ray-dvd-flipper-discs#post_3649144 Based on some "thickness" issues with DVD/CD hybrid discs a while back I made sure to include slot load DVD and BD drives in the test.
Thanks for the info Adam. Any possibility of adding a PS3 to your suite of test players?

Careful man, there's a beverage here!





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users