Jump to content



Sign up for a free account to remove the pop-up ads

Signing up for an account is fast and free. As a member you can join in the conversation, enter contests and remove the pop-up ads that guests get. Click here to create your free account.


Photo

What's wrong with this discolored disc? (w/ pic)


  • You cannot start a new topic
  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1 of 15 OFFLINE   Karl F

Karl F

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 103 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 21 2002

Posted December 10 2006 - 02:03 PM

http://filmistruth.com/images/dvd.jpg

(Click the link to see the disc in question.)

I own a video store and I've had a number of Kino discs change color like this. They also stop working, either freezing in the middle or not loading at all. Kino says they've had no reports of anything wrong with their discs from anyone else.

The above disc is Galileo, from the American Film Theatre box set -- it's our second copy of this title to do this, and it definitely wasn't like this when we first got it. Other affected titles include the other titles from this set as well as The Adventures of Robin Hood and the two Krzysztof Kieslowski "A Short Film About..." discs. Not every Kino disc ends up like this, but I've got a stack of about a dozen that have.

I've seen a few discs from other companies change color and stop working as well, but the overwhelming proportion is Kino discs, which leads me to rule out environmental causes.

Important to note: the above disc has never rented out to anyone, so I think we can rule out customer abuse (e.g., from a particular Kino-loving customer or something) as a cause.

What's going on here? What exactly is this? Why is it happening almost exclusively to Kino discs? Any ideas, anyone?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts,

--K

#2 of 15 OFFLINE   Tom_Ca

Tom_Ca

    Agent



  • 42 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 23 2004

Posted December 10 2006 - 02:25 PM

DVD Rot. Google it.

#3 of 15 OFFLINE   Karl F

Karl F

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 103 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 21 2002

Posted December 10 2006 - 08:14 PM

Interesting. I'd heard the term before, but hadn't seen any pics, so I wasn't sure that this was an example of it. I'd also heard that DVD rot was a "myth." (see this article: http://www.techtalkr...ures/dvdrot.htm -- which says, for instance, that "... there might be some oxidation on the outer edges…but that isn’t Rot !! It’s delamination. In some instances data on the hub or outer edges may be lost with this cheap media but usually it is just aesthetically unattractive..."

Some of the articles suggest that DVD rot can set in after "as few as" 4 or 5 plays, but apparently it can take place with none, as well (although the disc was removed from its case and put back again, so maybe the lamination was weak and even this small amount of use was enough to split it...?).

The articles also shed some light on why discs that look fine stop working, too -- we've been having a lot of problems with Warner movies dropping dead, but the discs look perfect to the naked eye -- apparently that's not good enough. This link -- http://www.afterdawn...rchive/1655.cfm -- claims that discs manufactured by "WAMO (Warner Advanced Media Organization)" tend to have problems -- would I be correct to assume that WAMO manufactures Warner's DVDs?

Anyway. I hate posting questions that have four word answers, one of which is "Google" Posted Image -- but thanks for your prompt reply!

--K

#4 of 15 OFFLINE   Rolando

Rolando

    Screenwriter



  • 1,326 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 19 2001

Posted December 11 2006 - 02:51 AM

Happened to my Rocky, exact look and freezes about 20 minutes in. won't play no matter how much you FF. My Gladiator looks like that too but still plays. It's weird. Anyone know a number to contact MGM for a replacement?
Rolando Avendano

My Collection

#5 of 15 OFFLINE   Soah

Soah

    Agent



  • 36 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 26 2004

Posted December 11 2006 - 03:21 AM

I have alot of discs which look like that. Alot have it from the inside looking like a cloudy wavy watermark but they play fine. My Moulin Rouge looks perfect with not even a hint of a scratch yet rotted. When I play it the picture pixelizes constantly and freezes up.

#6 of 15 OFFLINE   ChristopherDAC

ChristopherDAC

    Producer



  • 3,729 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 18 2004

Posted December 11 2006 - 03:53 AM

Yep, destruction of the data layer due to improper manufacturing, possibly with secondary environmental causes. Thermal cycling is a killer. People thingk of it in connexion with LaserDiscs, but CDs and DVDs are not at all immune ; since they're cheap, small, and lightweight, however, having one go bad doesn't make the same kind of impression as having a big platter slowly fade away.

#7 of 15 OFFLINE   MielR

MielR

    Advanced Member



  • 993 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 14 2006
  • Real Name:MielR

Posted December 11 2006 - 04:30 PM

I'm glad someone brought up this subject, because I've been curious about this for some time. I ocassionally see black "specks" on the data side of a DVD, and I'm wondering what they are, and if they are anything to worry about. Are these discs defective or should they still play OK? I think I may own a couple of these discs, but to my knowledge they have never caused playback problems (which is odd- I would think that a black speck would disrupt the playback considerably). If I buy a DVD and notice it has a speck(s) on it, should I automatically exchange it? Some of my earliest CDs from the '80s have pin-holes that you can actually see light through (they had the holes when they were new) but I never had a problem with playback with any of these CDs (and still don't).
SAVE STAR WARS! BOYCOTT THE BLU-RAYS! "Like" us here:

http://www.facebook....ycotttheblurays


#8 of 15 OFFLINE   RoyM

RoyM

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 204 posts
  • Join Date: May 02 2005

Posted December 12 2006 - 06:54 AM

Well, there are two (only slightly) related issues at play that seem to get bunched under the heading of DVD rot. One is in fact a condition very much like "rot" which manifests as a gradual degradation of the disk over time (which seems to be what is occurring with your Kino disk). This is most likely due to a slow delamination (or separation) of disk layers that leads to the oxidation of inner layers of the disk and results in actual destruction of the data layer of the disk. This particular issue is more troubling because it is obviously unpredictable, and given the time frame involved, may make the affected disk difficult if not impossible to replace (particularly in cases where the title goes OOP prior to your DVD going bad). The second case that seems to be far less accurately assessed as 'rot' is disks that are defective right out of manufacturing, many of which show no visible flaw that would lead one to believe they are defective. This occurs far more frequently than some people realize. I have had at least a couple dozen disks over the years that were defective right out of the package, many of which were purchased the day they were released (so as to be not an issue of disks 'rotting' on the shelf). The majority of these badly manufactured disks have indeed been from Warner (and presumably from WAMO plants). Most recently, I got a bad pressing of Pocket Money in the new Paul Newman set that froze up at the layer change and skipped and/or pixelated for a portion of the film just after the LC. I have also had sporadic problems with Universal (including some of the dreaded DVD-18's) and HBO disks. Your particular problem is the first I have heard with Kino disks. I only own a dozen or so Kinos, but will now be careful to check those disks for playback or delamination problems. Generally, Warner is pretty good about replacing faulty disks from what I've heard, though I have usually ended up rebuying the defective disks I've had to replace. Universal is more of a crap shoot, as they often end up sending equally defective disks. Criterion and Anchor Bay have historically been very good about replacing disks that go bad (if still in print). I'm not sure about Kino, but hopefully they will make good on their bad disks, particularly if this is an extensive problem. What it all really comes down to is DVD is a very finicky medium. Any slight flaw in manufacture can lead to playback problems - immediately or over time. As I mentioned above, it is the ones that occur over time that can often cause the most headaches.

#9 of 15 OFFLINE   M

M

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 122 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 23 2006

Posted December 12 2006 - 07:03 AM

Same here. ALL my DVD's look like that and they all play fine.
But I would feel better without that "watermarks". Posted Image
Years ago I've read about some life-forms which can eat the inside of audio CD if disc is somehow "infected"... if anyone knows what I'm talkin about. I remember even seeing a photo taken through the microscope which shows the CD layer with some traces in it... like from very small worms.
I refuse to believe in it because I could end up in psychiatry if I do. Posted Image

#10 of 15 OFFLINE   Eric Huffstutler

Eric Huffstutler

    Screenwriter



  • 1,302 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 02 1999
  • Real Name:Eric Huffstutler
  • LocationRichmond, VA

Posted December 12 2006 - 02:42 PM

I have many that have the milky looking layer and play just fine. They came off the shelf that way. But like some, have others that look perfect and won't - like my MGM Midnite Movie Dr. Phibes discs. I owned a single title copy that acted exactly the same way as the double feature (both movies/ both sides act the same) - where the MGM DVD logo plays and then when the menu is supposed to load, it just freezes up with a black screen. It is the only title of the Midnite Movie series that acts this way for me. Any ideas there? Eric

#11 of 15 OFFLINE   Eric Huffstutler

Eric Huffstutler

    Screenwriter



  • 1,302 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 02 1999
  • Real Name:Eric Huffstutler
  • LocationRichmond, VA

Posted December 12 2006 - 02:48 PM

M-Mate.. Audio CDs are manufactures similar but different. Years ago I asked about seperation from WAMO directly and they said they test their discs under extreme conditions including heat to make sure the sealers hold but of course there can be defective discs considering how many are made on an assembly line. I think the milky look is sometimes caused by trapped moisture or an uneven flow of glue? Eric

#12 of 15 OFFLINE   Richard_Gregory

Richard_Gregory

    Second Unit



  • 361 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 31 2005

Posted December 12 2006 - 09:06 PM

The "milky" effect is a manifestation of the "coffee stain effect". This shows up as irregular area of darker colour on the play side (or area of lighter colour, depending on how you want to look at it), sometimes bordered by a slightly cloudy or milky-looking line. It is caused by uneven application of the lacquer layer which coats and protects the metal data layer. It should never cause any problems and should not affect playback. Many early discs are like this (a lot of my early Anchor Bay and A&E titles have it), but the effect is less prominent on newers discs because manufacturing has improved. DVD "rot" on the other hand has different manifestations. It can usually be put down to an error in manufacture; for example, certain discs from Anchor Bay were manufactured using a wrong lacquer which caused oxidation of the metal data layer after around 18 months causing the disc to turn a dark bronze colour and to become totally unplayable. Others had suffered from improper bonding of the various layers, allowing oxygen to get to the metal data layer and ruining it (usually shows as a discolouration starting in from the outer or inner edges). Certain discs made by the WAMO (Warner Advanced Media Operations )plant had problems; many studios used WAMO (eg Warner, Universal, Image and others) had problems. The discs are mostly early issues, and only dual layer discs are affected. The latest bug is DVD-18 discs, commonly used by Universal for TV boxsets etc, and here the problem seems to lie with the manufacturer (Deluxe) having poor quality control. Discs have flaws causing players to pixellate, lock up, etc. A few discs are made in Taiwan (there are very few plants that can make DVD-18 discs, they are difficult and expensive to make) and these seem to have far fewer problems. As has been said, due care should be taken with the storage and handling of discs. They are not indestructible. It does not help that they often come on poor packaging that grips far too tight and forces the user to bend the disc to get it out, this is not good, as it encourages delamination. Any packaging that does this should be modified (with a nail file) to grip less tightly, or abandoned (put the discs in a quality case, such as Amaray).

#13 of 15 OFFLINE   norrisMc

norrisMc

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 212 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 04 2006

Posted December 12 2006 - 11:43 PM

Thanks. This is how I understand it too. I have several with the "milky-watermark" look but they play fine. Sometimes when I used to get them that looked like that I would change them 5 or 6 times but even the replacements would have that same "milky" look. Eventually, I gave up trying to replace them all. Ironically, I have NEVER had any trouble with these same discs which has me wondering why I went through so much trouble trying to change them in the first place. Just because they looked weird I suppose. I think some early WAMO discs had issues like "Contact", "LA Confidential" etc etc (but that wasn't necessarily this same discoloration issue).
Norris

#14 of 15 OFFLINE   Richard_Gregory

Richard_Gregory

    Second Unit



  • 361 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 31 2005

Posted December 13 2006 - 04:42 AM

There is no need to replace discs that show the "coffee stain effect". It has no effect onplayback and will not get any worse. You can also get discs that have slightly milky or misty area because of imperfections of the clear polycarbonate plastic surface. This too should have no effect on playback. There were a number of early discs made by the WAMO plant that had problems. It usually shows up as pixellation and other playback issues around the layer change point which progressively get worse. A number of studios used WAMO for their early releases ie pre-2000. Only dual-layer discs had these problems. Most discs did not however. AFAI, if a disc was going to develop problems, it should have done so by now. None of my discs that I have identified as being early WAMO manufacture have developed any problems. A lot of problems with discs can be narrowed down to poor handling/storage. As I said, the often poor design of DVD cases does not help this. Of course it is always wise to test play a disc within a reasonable time of buying it. No manufacture process is perfect so there are bound to be faulty discs from time to time.

#15 of 15 OFFLINE   MielR

MielR

    Advanced Member



  • 993 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 14 2006
  • Real Name:MielR

Posted December 14 2006 - 01:56 PM

.....does anyone know what the black specks are? What's the best type of storage case for DVD? Is it the one with the yin/yang-type pop-up hub holder?
SAVE STAR WARS! BOYCOTT THE BLU-RAYS! "Like" us here:

http://www.facebook....ycotttheblurays





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users