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Consumer Silence


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101 replies to this topic

#1 of 102 Shaw

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Posted August 29 2006 - 07:01 AM

The message that was here previously was the ravings of a madman. Please look near the end of this thread for a much more saner individual who has learne a lot from this group and for some shamless promotion for his SCTV on DVD Campaign!

Special thanks also to Paul Simon for his positive message. The attack only weakens your position.

I also apologise to anyone in this thread that I have offended.

Shawn
SCTV on DVD Campaign
"I am against the attack. I thnk we that we all share an enormous amount, far more than we don't share" - Paul Simon

#2 of 102 EricSchulz

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Posted August 29 2006 - 07:57 AM

Sounds like someone woke up of the wrong side of the bed this morning and had an extra "bitter" pill for breakfast.

You make so many exaggerations and generalizations about the topic---most of them incorrect---that you really don't have much credibility...

#3 of 102 MarkHarrison

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Posted August 29 2006 - 09:04 AM

What replies do you hope to get that you haven't gotten on all these other threads you've started on basically the same topic: Posted Image

SCTV on DVD Campaign

Our own damn fault!

TV Shows on DVD Poll

TV Shows on DVD Labelling and Packaging

New Class Action Lawsuit?

Some background on the music clearance problem

Question for Gord Lacey of TVShowsOnDVD.com

SCTV DVD Blog & Petition for Season 3 Uncut

Music Clearance

SCTV Music Clearance Group

"Stairway To Heaven" not cleared for SCTV

DVD Consumer Group

SCTV DVD Blog & Petition for Season 3 Uncut

#4 of 102 Mark Talmadge

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Posted August 29 2006 - 09:33 AM

It's not exactly that everyone has been silent ... a lot of us have been complaining for years and years about this problem but studios don't listen to the rank and file consumer. The only way to force studios to release unedited and uncut episodes in these sets is to STOP BUYING THE PRODUCT. If a set is released as syndicated, then don't buy it ...

For such a long time I held off on buying the Seinfeld DVD's because it wasn't a neccessary buy for me. When Seasons 7 and 8 were announced I bought the first six seasons from Target when they held their $19.99 sale and I got rainchecks for the sets because they were sold out and it allowed me to purchase them at my leisure. Most DVD shows don't peak any interest in me but some of my recent impulse buys have been Lost, Gimore Girls, Smallville, Grey's Anatomy ...

You just have to use what judgment you have and either boycott the studio or buy their product ...

#5 of 102 Shaw

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Posted August 29 2006 - 10:39 AM

OK.. Look. I know have been ranting and raving on this topic for months. I think everyone here can agree that the problems with TV Shows on DVD are many. We all have been puttting up with this for quite some time.

However, I do believe that most people want the product complete and unedited. I don't think there will be many that will disagree with that. We as consumers, I believe, are being abused by the studios and the copyright holders. We keep paying them to slap us in the face. The problem is for us as a group to agree how to deal with the problem. Any disagreements with that?

And the reason why is because most of us as consumers continue to buy the product. We complain here at HTF, yet we do nothing about it. Yet, we have the power. There is more we can do than just simply decide "to buy or not to buy", which is really ineffective. The fact that so many TV Shows continue to be released on DVD that are edited is proof of that. Not enough of us have stopped buying. When one show fails to sell on DVD, they just start up with another one.

If we do buy, that is giving the approval to the studios to create DVD's with cuts, bad picture, etc. If we don't buy, they simply decide not to continue releasing it at all. No skin off their backs. And another reason is that we are so over-populated. If one person doesn't buy the product, then someone else will be along in a few seconds who will.

I have stated here before that there should be notices on the packaging stating that the programs have been edited or altered. And don't give me that "what studio would do that and lose profits" jazz. Who's side are you on?

Some studios are finally doing this. But I think this is in the minority of cases. There is no laws to protect consumer decisions at the point of sale regarding this point.

At one time, people used to rally together for a cause and create change. It seems today, that people just aren't interested in a cause. This is all about our rights as consumers. If we say nothing and do nothing we won't make any progress. Nothing will change... agreed?

The Studios and Copyright Holders have laws to protect them. However, there is little protection for the consumer. And yet we are the ones who pay for the product!

I still believe that we can make a difference. The only thing holding us back is a self-defeating attitude. The Philosophy: "Oh well, there is nothing we can do about it, so why bother trying?" seems to prevail.

When Terry Fox started his Marathon of Hope, he influenced people to donate money to cancer research. Rick Hanson has made a difference in Spinal Cord research, just like the late Christopher Reeve. They simply made a small difference by getting as many people as possible behind a cause. In the end, it made a world of difference and grew to become millions of people.

And what have we got to lose really? The price of a postage stamp? A few minutes putting paper to pen? Are we really that lazy? Don't we want to stand up for anything? Don't we believe in anything anymore?

If the world worked that way we'd still be living in caves. We are only as powerless as we think we are. The studios are banking on that... Literally!

It seems so difficult to convince people that we can make a difference. What do I need to do to show you that we have the power? Shall I jump up and down all day long? Do sommersaults and head stands? Juggle? Jump through a hoop? Climb Mount Everest? I just can't seem to convince you!!!

**Get's hauled off in white coats**

Shaw
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"I am against the attack. I thnk we that we all share an enormous amount, far more than we don't share" - Paul Simon

#6 of 102 Gord Lacey

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Posted August 29 2006 - 12:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaw
Consumers who purchase TV on DVD are getting a raw deal. Today, The Tick vs. Season One was released. I read reviews and the picture quality is poor. The disc also has an episode missing. This is symptomatic of the studio system. Chop it up, rubber stamp, next please.

Did you read about the problems with the episode? They couldn't include it due to legal reasons. You're right; they shouldn't have released it at all because a whole show not being released is much, much better than having to leave off an episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaw
Very few TV Shows are actually complete. Many of them are musically butchered or are shorter syndicated versions.

BULLLLLLLLLLSHIT. Take a look at the number of TV releases and you'll see that the number of altered sets is very slim. Yes, people post when they discover something is different, but come on, who is going to post and say "OMG, I just got ____ season ___ and it's exactly the same as I remember it!!"

Seriously Shaw, you put up a good fight, but rehashing the same arguments (some of which are false) over and over will just piss people off... which you can probably see from the replies to this thread.

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#7 of 102 Shaw

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Posted August 29 2006 - 01:27 PM

Gord Said:

"Did you read about the problems with the episode? They couldn't include it due to legal reasons. You're right; they shouldn't have released it at all because a whole show not being released is much, much better than having to leave off an episode."

I personally think that they could have waited until they were able to settle any legal disputes. I would have waited another year if I knew it would have been complete, uncut and that they would have taken the time to remaster the picture and sound. They could also have charged a little more and I would gladly have paid a little more for the extra quality.

I am aware that the cutting of the program is supposed to be for some unknown "artistic" reason. What were the legal reasons? I never heard about that. I really think that Disney is trying to cut costs. I also believe that the studios cut out episodes for several shows so they can re-release the entire series so people will have to buy it all over again, perhaps in HD. There's profit to be had.

It is also very hard for me to believe the studios when they give excuses for cuts like the one you mention. How can I trust everything they say when they are rarely forthcoming about what you are getting when you read the package? There is usually little transparency about the product. I will say that Disney did indeed list on the back of the Tick that there was indeed a show cut. They are only now realising that consumers deserve to know about the product before buying. I declined to buy the Tick because I saw some screen caps in a DVD Review. Picture quality is poor. The episode missing made the final decision for me.

Gord Said:

"BULLLLLLLLLLSHIT. Take a look at the number of TV releases and you'll see that the number of altered sets is very slim. Yes, people post when they discover something is different, but come on, who is going to post and say "OMG, I just got ____ season ___ and it's exactly the same as I remember it!!"

While it may be true that there are a great number of shows out there complete, this doesn't change the fact that many consumers are getting a raw deal. There is no excuse for not informing the consumer on the package about any edits or alterations so they can make a decision at the point of sale. Most sets don't tell you that there are musical edits on the packages and this is only beginning to show now. Another problem is the lack of info on wether the DVD is actually a set of shorter syndicated shows.

And I would stop and post that a given series was complete and uncut to let people know that their money was well spent. I am always amazed when I hear about a series that isn't edited. Each consumer's luck will depend on what they buy. Kind of like playing the lottery.

We have nothing to lose by taking action and writing letters and changing the attitudes we have towards our shopping habits. We are the consumers. The studios rely on our dollars.

The Moonlighting on DVD Campaign is a fine example of consumers taking positive action:
http://www.moonlightingdvd.com/

Shaw
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"I am against the attack. I thnk we that we all share an enormous amount, far more than we don't share" - Paul Simon

#8 of 102 AnthonyC

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Posted August 29 2006 - 02:57 PM

Like Gord said, the reason why everyone thinks there are so many altered sets is because when a set is altered, people point it out right away. Otherwise, it's expected that a set contains the episodes as originally broadcast. Unless it's an older show that people haven't seen in years, I don't really see a point to saying "Hey guys; just got the set; it's complete!"

Quote:
While it may be true that there are a great number of shows out there complete, this doesn't change the fact that many consumers are getting a raw deal. There is no excuse for not informing the consumer on the package about any edits or alterations so they can make a decision at the point of sale.

This doesn't make any sense. You say "While it may be true that there are a great number of shows out there complete..." and then go into another point entirely.

Are there more altered shows out there than there should be? Absolutely. But I think you're exaggerating the problem quite a bit.

#9 of 102 Shaw

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Posted August 29 2006 - 03:01 PM

"Are there more altered shows out there than there should be? Absolutely. But I think you're exaggerating the problem quite a bit."

This does not change the fact that studios are not informing consumers on the packaging. When a package says "The Complete Series", it should not be altered in any way.

Shaw
SCTV on DVD Campaign
"I am against the attack. I thnk we that we all share an enormous amount, far more than we don't share" - Paul Simon

#10 of 102 Tony J Case

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Posted August 29 2006 - 05:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaw
Today, The Tick vs. Season One was released. I read reviews and the picture quality is poor. The disc also has an episode missing.

No, actually the picture quality was just about exactly what you'd expect for a 15 year old cartoon. It was certanly comperable to the Tailspin and Darkwing Duck discs I got today. As for the missing episode - it does say on the back of the box that there was one held over.

As for it never showing up, I recall that its in the cards for a later set - so no big deal. But even if it NEVER showed up, I'd rather have 11 episodes instead of none. It's a glass half empty/half full - well, 9 and 9/10th full.

If you are offended by the cuts, the quality, the "problems" - then hit the bricks. Me, I'll be enjoying my Darkwing goodness, even with 30 seconds missing from the pilot.

#11 of 102 Johnny S

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Posted August 29 2006 - 09:00 PM

The fact is that we are the minority. Lets face it, the average consumer doesn’t post at a forum like this. Most people aren't so anal about their DVD's... If it's a show they like, they'll buy it & still enjoy it even if it's edited. Most people wont even notice any edits. We need to learn to grin & bear it because the chances of anything changing are slim to none. I am not encouraging edits, I am just saying that A) Edited TV on DVD is better than nothing, arguably. & B) The studios wont change their ways while they are successfully making money.
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#12 of 102 Ethan Riley

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Posted August 29 2006 - 09:08 PM

Shaw, I think your biggest problem is that you're TOO pissed off about things that, in the larger world view, are trivial matters. If you bring your style of approach to the studios, in letters or e-mails, they'd simply dismiss you as a crank. And you accuse tv-on-dvd fans of not doing anything about these "issues." That is not true; when we don't like a dvd set, we post about it here, and in many cases, simply don't buy that set. Withholding money from the studios is the best way of getting to them. And I think as time goes on, those same studios are becoming more aware of what we like and don't like--and why. For example, the outrage over syndicated cuts in the early Roseanne and 3rd Rock From the Sun sets prompted Anchor Bay to work more closely with Carsey-Werner in providing complete episodes for the later releases. They DID listen to us--I don't understand why you can't see that, nor can I understand why this rubbish torques you off to such a huge degree... The rest of us can only speculate--
 

 


#13 of 102 george kaplan

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Posted August 29 2006 - 10:11 PM

As one who's 'fanatic' about uncut episodes, I certainly agree that it's a problem when it happens. Fortunately, it doesn't happen all that often, unfortunately, if it happens at all, which it does, it's too often.

When it happens, I don't buy. I've missed out on some Mary Tyler Moore (music cuts), Kung Fu (faux widescreen), Wiseguy (music substitutions) and others. Still, I've got tons of tv on dvd, cause most of it is released correctly.

Two statements I particularly disagree with:
The truth is that TV Shows on DVD has been a disaster almost from the beginning. Very few TV Shows are actually complete.
The problems are serious when they happen, but far too small a percentage to call it a disaster.

they shouldn't have released it at all because a whole show not being released is much, much better than having to leave off an episode.
You're being sarcastic Gord, which is what I disagree with. I am one who does think that if they can't do it right, they shouldn't do it at all. I love WKRP in Cincinnati, and I'm sad it's not out. But if it came out without all the music, then I'd be pissed. Saying that something is better than nothing is simply not true when you're talking about an work of art. The only 'extenuating circumstance' is when it's truly impossible to do, rather than inconvenient or too expensive to do. So, if an episode was lost and there's no way to get it, that's one thing. But if you won't pay for the music rights (no matter if it's too expensive or not) for example, then I'd much rather you didn't release it at all. Cause the bottom line is, that releasing a show with music substitutions, ISN'T releasing the show at all, it's releasing an inferior product that looks kind of like the show, but isn't.
"Movies should be like amusement parks. People should go to them to have fun." - Billy Wilder

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#14 of 102 Shaw

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Posted August 29 2006 - 11:21 PM

Thank You, George. Besides, my other point is that we as consumers can have a say if we choose to. Most don't even want to bother it seems. I do know this. There are going to be more and more TV Shows cut in the future. The Studios are now in a nice, comfortable position where they know that the public will pay for something that is edited.

We give away our control. And they will gladly take our money. If we want the best, we have to demand it. Obviously people here refuse to take any kind of stand on behalf of their favorite shows. The brainwashing is complete.

Thanks again to George Kaplan for his comments. He obviouly sees the slippery slope that TV shows are on. Mr. Lacey seems to have done his job convincing consumers that there is nothing that can be done.

We all do remember the 1960's and Star Trek, don't we? That shows was cancelled and a huge letter writing campaign took place that saved the series. I would also like to point out that today's Star Trek fans would also have done the same thing if the DVD's were edited. Believe me, they are the most loyal fans on the planet. Paramount execs would have been assaulted by a huge letter writing campaign.

Finally, if your favorite series was heavily edited and you knew that there were plenty of other fans out there complaining about the same thing, wouldn't you want to have your say? As a consumer, you are entitiled to it.

"Caveat Emptor"

Shaw
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"I am against the attack. I thnk we that we all share an enormous amount, far more than we don't share" - Paul Simon

#15 of 102 Cees Alons

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Posted August 30 2006 - 12:24 AM

Shaw,

You made your point, and in several threads.

Will you, please, consider this thread "yours", about this specific topic, and not post the same requests, calls, retoric, arguments, etc. anywhere else?

I closed some of your other threads about this subject, but please do not continue the same discussion in another one.

It's fine when you do it here, but we don't want several threads/posts about the same issue multiple times. That's a general policy on this forum, but it applies here too.

Thanks.

#16 of 102 Shaw

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Posted August 30 2006 - 01:04 AM

No problem!
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#17 of 102 Gord Lacey

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Posted August 30 2006 - 02:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by george kaplan
they shouldn't have released it at all because a whole show not being released is much, much better than having to leave off an episode.
You're being sarcastic Gord, which is what I disagree with. I am one who does think that if they can't do it right, they shouldn't do it at all. I love WKRP in Cincinnati, and I'm sad it's not out. But if it came out without all the music, then I'd be pissed.

You're misquoting me. I was talking about an episode being left off the set, not music substitution. Yes, it sucks when a show can't be released because of the music. People complain when a show is released and has altered music, but they also complain when they can't own them. I think Warner Bros is the perfect example of a studio trying to do the right thing when it comes to licensing the music. I think to date they have substituted/removed 4 songs from all their TV releases. That's impressive, but they also have lots of shows they haven't released because they can't license the music for the budget they have. Wonder why we haven't seen any more Murphy Brown or Without a Trace? How about China Beach or Cold Case? Warner Bros would have to substitute music for those sets, and they'd rather not, so they just don't release them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaw
Mr. Lacey seems to have done his job convincing consumers that there is nothing that can be done.

Or maybe I understand a bit more about the business than you do, and I realize that while the studios aren't perfect, they're doing the best they can. Did you ever stop to think that the SCTV sets you own could only be released because they removed some of the music? Maybe some of the music HAD to be removed, and couldn't be licensed under any circumstance. You're looking at the situation like a glass that's half full, instead of being completely full, when the situation may be a half full glass, or no glass at all.

While I understand it may be fun to attack me in the forums, you have no idea the amount of work I've done behind the scenes with the studios. I've stressed to them on many, many occasions that they need to get the uncut versions of episodes, and if there are music substitutions then they have to mark the packaging and let people know that there are changes. I've bitched out Universal over their music substitutions (and I'm sure this lead to the warning on their packaging), and I pass along tips sent my way about special episodes, or 2-hour episodes that were later edited into 2 hour-long episodes for syndication. I've slammed Sony for substituting music and compressing the hell out of Dawson's Creek (one of their top TV-DVD sellers). I've also blasted the studios for these "Complete Series" packages, both in interviews, and when I'm speaking to them.

Attack me if you want, Shaw, but I've done a whole hell of a lot more towards this cause that you're fighting for than you have. You make it sound like I side with the studio all the time, and that's so far from the truth.

Anyway, I'm done defending myself in your threads. Twist my words to suit your needs; I won't be responding anymore.

Gord
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#18 of 102 Shaw

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Posted August 30 2006 - 03:57 AM

I have never stated categorically that Gord wasn't doing his best. Neither do I insinuate that He has never done his part on behalf of the consumer. What hasn't happened often enough is that consumers have not written letters or changed their buying habits. Ultimately, this is all about consumers being content to spend their money on edited sets.

Now, regarding the Glass Half full, I agree. Certainly half is better than none. This doesn't make watching a set you just bought pleasant. You grit your teeth waiting for the cuts. Lots of fun, eh?

However, what does this mean for the future of a given series? Will a given show always be edited? And what will change this situation? I personally see only the consumers making the difference at this point. It seems very few object to this practice. If this doesn't change, things will stay the same.

Given that there are going to be more and more edited series on DVD, what will the future be like for Classic Shows like WKRP? This is more important than just someone like myself complaining about a given program. We are talking about a pretty sizeable chunk of pop culture history.

Are we going to allow an entire portion of that history to fade into oblivion? Are the interests of the copyright holders and the lawyers, etc. more important than that? It's actually censorship.

Once again, the few have decided that their interests are more important than all of the people who put them there in the first place. They abuse the priveleges they have simply for the sake of profit. And it's really all so meaningless.

Shaw
SCTV on DVD Campaign
"I am against the attack. I thnk we that we all share an enormous amount, far more than we don't share" - Paul Simon

#19 of 102 Bob Turnbull

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Posted August 30 2006 - 04:22 AM

Quote:
Neither do I insinuate that He has never done his part on behalf of the consumer.
Actually, that's pretty much exactly what you just did Shaw. You imply that Gord is telling consumers to grin and bear it. If you can't see the huge amount of beneficial work Gord and his web site have done, you really have removed yourself from reality when it comes to your cause.

You continue to make generalized statements (many false ones with no supporting information) and put yourself in rant mode. Be specific in your criticisms. Be calm. Offer solutions that are realistic.

And don't, please don't, compare this cause to anything Terry Fox or Rick Hansen have done. That's not to say it isn't worthwhile or that every cause must save thousands of lives. But please gain some context.

#20 of 102 Paul Miller

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Posted August 30 2006 - 04:59 AM

Most TV Shows on DVD are done pretty well, the only series I collect that have problems is Will & Grace (syndicated versions) and Quantum Leap (music rights), but by doing research, I knew both had the problems they had before I bought them except for one season of Quantum Leap. I look at it this way, I hate music replacement or cuts, but I'd much rather have these episodes on DVD than not having them like the Wonder Years or WKRP in Cinn especially when so many older shows which should have a home are hard to find these days on 200 cable channels.

Paul


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