Consumer Silence (1 Viewer)

[Hank E]

It kinda bothers me that so many people consider a solution for this problem to be simply "don't buy the set"... "don't give the studio your money". Poor sales is just poor sales. That's not going to change anything... except insuring that they'll stop releasing future seasons of shows altogether. I think people should write these companies and let them know WHY they're not buying a particular set. At least that way there's a chance they'll be alerted to the problem and try to fix it (like the "Roseanne" and "3rd Rock" sets). There's even a good chance you'll be pointing out something they were oblivious to. Posting here is ok to gain support, but make it more pro-active: start listing mailing addresses to send complaints to. Encourage people to sit down and write out a letter. Hey, if it worked for "Cagney and Lacey"....

Ok, that's it. So lay into me now... really let me have it!

 

[Ethan Riley]

That's the first TRUE thing you've said in this entire thread!

 

[RoryR]

When I look at my shelves I see very little shows with syndicated cuts, in fact only Third Rock from the Sun and Roseanne have true cuts, The Golden Girls Season 5 had a few problems - I would say I have a larger than average TV show collection, around 90 sets, that is less than most people here but more than most average customers and I can tell there isn't much of a problem.

As for Music replacement, I couldn't name a single set that has it because a. I don't notice, b. I don't care. I'd rather have the 22 minutes on DVD than have nothing at the cost of 30 seconds of music, I'd rather have a lower cost than get every song they used that will waste 14 seconds of my time and I'll never remember - I just want the episodes.

I have never thought I've been screwed, look at the Roseanne situation - I got Season 1 and so did many people, but they were able to change.

I would buy a syndicated set if the show wasn't on TV, or I wanted to watch when I want.

 

[Mike Frezon]

If people are content, they are, by definition, satisfied and happy. If you think they ought not be happy you might try to explain why. But sometimes happy people just want to be left alone.

 

[george kaplan]

Gord,

Sorry if I misquoted you. The point I was trying to make is simply that whether it is music replacement, syndicated episodes, wrong aspect ratio, missing theme music or whatever, I for one would rather have it not done at all (with at least the hope that someday it might get done right) than done incorrectly where you know it'll never be corrected. I bought Kung Fu season 3 and Cosby Show season 2 cause they did those right, but I'll never see the earlier seasons of those shows (or even MTM season 1 with a complete Xmas episode) :frowning:

 

[RoryR]

Most people wouldn't.

Lets take Roseanne, a lot of people bought Season 1 anyway knowing that a storm was being made, it will probably change, and Season 1 might be fixed later but otherwise they've atleast got the 22 episodes to watch when they want - its like your own Nick at Nite schedule.

 

[Mark Y]

Second City wanted to release these shows years and years ago. It took them years to get as far with the clearances as they were able to do. And there is reference to the cuts, fully explained, at least in the booklet with Volume 1. Maybe it's not on the back of the box in giant flashing red neon letters, but no one can say the SCTV fan base was not aware in advance, with the communication between Second City, Shout and the SCTV fan community on the internet. The other thing is that SCTV is not a show that's going to sell a billion copies. It's not "Seinfeld" (or sci-fi). And we know Alexander and company are not millionaires. The sets are pretty much going to sell to hardcore fans, especially at these prices...it's a no-win situation. The cost of the licensing jacks up the price, ensuring that the sets will pretty much sell to hardcore fans. They could make more from the average viewer who's curious about the show...hence the Christmas disc and the "Volume 1" and "Volume 2" single discs. DVD is a business, and economic reality dictates what gets released and what doesn't. I personally want to see the rest of the shows released. The early half-hour shows were my favorites and I have been wanting to get copies of them for years. The versions which have aired on US TV since the mid-1980s have been butchered beyond recognition. It does concern me (but in the context of LIFE, I'm not going to live or die over it) that there are no Season 1 shows on this set, and very few Season 2 shows. I hope that means there will be more to follow...those of us who want to see that happen can help to make it happen by making sure this set sells, because that's how we can make a difference.

I note that Shout Factory released a set of "The Best Of The Electric Company" last year (different show, different production company, different genre, but work with me here for a minute). It was not labeled "Volume 1." It included the first and last episode, and 22 others covering the entire run of the series (they are all complete and uncut, even down to the PBS logo at the end). It is a general overview of the series. To all appearances, it was intended to represent an overview of the entire series (especially given that the format of the show had a lot of segments repeating over and over in different episodes, over different seasons). This is a case where "complete" just wasn't really practical (though fans of the show certainly would have preferred it that way...but then where are you going to keep 780 half-hours which largely duplicate each other)?

But stay with me for a minute here..."The Best Of The Electric Company" (released by Shout Factory) apparently sold enough copies that they are doing a Volume 2! I plan to get it. But I am amazed they're doing it at all. (Almost, but not quite, every skit or song I could think of off the top of my head is on the first set, which is not the case with the forthcoming SCTV collection, which won't even feature Harold Ramis at all.)

I think the point is...instead of whining about how "I want it all," I am preferring to look at it this way: if someone sent me one of those "trade lists" back in the day (you know the ones) and said they had 20 original half-hour SCTV shows, mostly from Season 3 but also a couple Season 2 ones, they were complete (I am hoping they are at least), had the original openings, bumpers, credits and the skits in the right episodes in the right order, and they were the Canadian versions which were a couple minutes longer...I'd definitely work out a deal. Now here they are on DVD, in quality far superior to what I might have been able to get from one of those characters, if anyone even had these shows in their original form, which no one did unless they lived in Canada and had a VCR in 1978-1981. And it certainly will be at a fraction of the cost. (Much of this is conjecture, but come on...you know it's going to be better than anything anyone already has.)

(Of course, in reality, if I did get a list like that from some "collector type," I would have assumed--since no one has those shows in their original form--it was one of those cranks who wants to take people's money or set up "trades" and not fulfill their end of the bargain, and then change their e-mail address repeatedly...but that's a different subject altogether.) If the new DVD set ends up having the chopped up mid-1980s syndicated versions, then I'm in your corner. But let's not rush to judgment.

I say bring it on...if you want these shows, grab them, and get a couple extra sets to give as gifts to comedy fans you know who might enjoy them. Then wait and see...six months or a year down the road...I mean come on, no Harold Ramis, no "Ben-Hur," no "Fantasy Island," no "Man Who Would Be King Of The Popes," no "Kidnapping of Moe Green" (no Moe Green at all, unless you count the occasional Season 3 reference)...this is not going to be a single-volume proposition. (Unless no one buys it, but instead they whine on the internet about how they refuse to buy it out of principle...meanwhile the makers of the set say, "Well, no one bought it, we lost our shirts on this, let's not do this again.")

I don't want to see that happen. (Of course, I could pick up a half dozen of them, sit on them for a couple years and throw them on ebaY, and have the last laugh.)

 

[Mark Talmadge]

Shaw, I think you're misguided just a tad bit.

First, everyone here has grievences(sp?) against the entertainment industry for the way they release edited versions of television shows. What everyone seems to think is that since the studios don't typically release statement as to why they release edited versions of popular shows it leaves fans out in the open to bitch and moan about it. This is far from the case.

While online fans represent a very small minority of entertainment fans, about two-thirds of entertainment fans who buy TV on DVD sets don't have internet access they aren't privy to the controversy and continue to support the industry by buying their favourite shows because they know that's the only way they are going to get their favourite shows.

Some studios are starting to get into the habit. Roseanne, The Cosby Show are just two examples of studios starting out releasing syndicated episodes and then switching to broadcast episodes when the clamor has gotten high enough for studios to notice. ( Thanks to Dave and Gord from TV Shows on DVD.com ).

I think you need to do your research first before creating a new topic and just bitching about it.

 

[RoryR]

Well, Roseanne caused storm on TV - I know Roseanne knew about it on Larry King Live when they were promoting the DVD.

I don't think its just the internet, of course people on the internet are more likely to know, but it can spread with only a small percentage of people having the internet access.

 

[Chris Lockwood]

> The truth is that TV Shows on DVD has been a disaster almost from the beginning. Very few TV Shows are actually complete.

I don't think that's true at all. Sure, some are poorly done, or have things missing for legal or other reasons. But there are resources like this forum, Gord's site, etc. to help us steer clear of bad ones.

The idea that you could own entire seasons of an old TV show, in a quality audio/video format, at today's prices, would have been unthinkable 20-30 years ago.

I think overall the studios have done a very good job with TV. Sure, they can always do better, but even when DVD first came out I had no idea we'd have such a vast library of content out there to choose from.

 

[Shaw]

I am sorry If I stepped on too many toes here. Thanks for all of your input.


Shaw

 

[Mark Talmadge]

Don't be afraid ... ehehe ... just do a little research in here or just ask. Take it from me, as I've ruffled more than my fair share of feathers ... CLUCK CLUCK ...

 

[FrancisP]

The way the studios see it is if a title doesn't sell then it is due to lack of demand. They are not going to say if we redo it and make it right and it'll sell.
You don't get second chances in this business. Prime example is Universal. I do think that quality issues associated with DVD-18s are responsible for poor sales on some of their classic tv on dvds. The net result is that these shows don't get a second season because of poor sales.

 

[RoryR]

That is worth knowing, that the studios have something you want and its either their way of the highway.

They are in control, not buying is certainly not the way to air your points and hope for change. Roseanne, people complained to the studio and distributor and even got their message on TV, that changed the sets and now we enjoy uncut episodes.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Y'see that's just it. What the OP proposes is exactly what happens...and Roseanne is a great example.

When the people aren't content and happy, they rebel. People who run a profit-making-company take note and react/respond (hopefully).

Where it gets hard is if there's not a big enough uprising for the company to take note...or if the company ignores a big-enough outcry.

In the second case, the people have already done their best by banding and making their point. In the first case, the small group needs to be as loud as it can and do its best to convince enough others that their cause is just and worthy of their time.

I'm just finding out that some of the Will & Grace season sets contained cut episodes. I've now got to decide how important that is to me to be able to determine what action to take: don't buy the sets, write the studio, call the studio, start an on-line petition (if there aren't 18 already), start an HTF thread blasting the studio and trying to rally support to the cause (if THAT hasn't been done already) or just say life's too short and buy the sets and enjoy them.

 

[RoryR]

Not buying never works.

You really just have to buy and then complain, and studios do not have to do anything - they already have your money, but not buying just tells them nobody wants the DVDs so they stop making them.

 

[Shaw]

I've been giving this a lot of thought. I know now that my methods have not been effective in getting my message across. But I am just a speck of sand as they say. It takes millions of grains of sand to make a beach.

I know that I have been too harsh here and that I got carried away. In my view, there is a bigger problem here than just a TV Show on DVD.

The real trouble is that society can become too complacent. We have an enormous power as consumers to decide what we spend our money on. But this problem, I feel, goes deeper than dollars and cents.

Right now, there is a minority of people in our society who are making the decisions for the masses. That is how our system works, wether it is political, social or intellectual. The real problem is that we aren't included in that decision making process. We come into it after decisions have been made. We buy or we don't. Sometimes we do make an imprint, as in the case of the Rosanne DVDs or Third Rock.

Our culture, I feel, is being hijacked in a sense. We grew up with memories of watching these shows. That is something more than just materialism. That was really our experience of these shows in the purest sense. We were innocent of any political or monetary motivations for being a part of whatever social event it was.

Now there is a political motivation. I know not everyone is as much a purist about a TV Show or a movie or whatever it is that I am. But I would not want to see a famous painting like the Mona Lisa altered. That is something I think everyone could agree on. When you buy a high quality reproduction of a painting and bring it into your home and put it on the wall, you want to experience what it is about the original artist's intent that made whatever that work of art was a masterpiece. It doesn't matter even if the substitutions made are really good, it is still not the Mona Lisa. There is a time and place to censor certain material, like Adult films from children. Kids do need to be protected from material like that as a positive part of their development.

SCTV did not ask permission originally to use much of the music on their show, but many copyright holders were very kind to simply ask for a simple fee and allowed their music to be used. I appreciate that, since I do believe that it is only fair for them to be paid for the use of their work. But to lord your position over someone else the way Led Zeppelin does is not a healthy place to come from. In the end, people aren't going to appreciate it. And they miss out on a positive way to contribute to someone else's work.

I came to this forum looking for answers and I know that my views have been very extreme. I realise that I need to apologize to Gord Lacey for my comments. From where he sits, he believes he is doing the best he can to improve the situation for TV Shows and I believe him.

We are the ones who buy the product and ultimately have to live with whatever is presented, as well as those artists who produced a given TV Show. I am quite certain that the artists never intended to harm or cause any damages to the other performers whose work they used.

When a copyright holder denies the use of their work, I don't know if they are always justified. I think some of them may be doing it out of spite or just for money. I think they miss an opportunity to promote themselves in someone else's work. I also feel that even if someone is parodied, it is the sincerest form of flattery.

If we only see that the "to buy or not to buy method" is the only tool we have, then I think we are selling ourselves short. I honestly believe that we all can make a positive difference in any issue if we just put our minds to it.

If my methods are wrong about this issue, then perhaps some people here can suggest a better way to deal with it. And I mean besides the buying issue. I also refuse to believe that we are powerless.

Copyright Holders may feel that their own reasons in an issue like this are the only ones that matter. Certainly, the music or whatever it is may be their own work and they have a right in this issue to control how their work is used. But this is also a two-way street. Some use their power like a weapon and believe that they can simply step on someone else's work simply for their own personal gain. Has a show like SCTV actually been harmful to Led Zeppelin? No, not at all. Their music continues to sell and their reputation has probably even improved as a result of their music used in a show like SCTV. The trouble is that they don't know that because fans have never had the chance to actually tell Led Zeppelin that.

In a sense, when they don't allow someone else to use their material, they are kind of censoring themselves, when they could actually benefit from graciously allowing their material to be used. I have a Benny Hill website. When someone takes pictures from it, I don't make a big deal about it. As I see it, this is a positive thing because if they link back to me, I get some free exposure, and it also spreads the legacy of Benny Hill. I have also been given some freedom to write reviews and post pictures of the Benny Hill show on my site. In a case like this everyone wins.

I also do not make any money from the site and I have a really good free webspace. For me this is a hobby and I love doing it. What could be better than that?

http://www.runstop.de/bennysplace/index.html

 

[Mike Frezon]

Shaw: Noone here is telling you that consumers are powerless. This community (the HTF) takes great pride in its ability to impact the studios and manufacturers of DVDs in a wide number of ways: DIVX, OAR, and a wide number of individual releases and their presentations.

And it is NOT just about whether to buy/not buy. This influence has taken on a number of different forms: on-line petitions, letter-writing campaigns, lengthy thread discussions which are known to be monitored by studio execs, educational discussions, etc.

The key is to focus your opinion/argument and find the most-effective way to frame and present it so that you can impel the most people to action to support your opinion and make a difference and achieve the desired result.

For example, I know a number of people here at the HTF (George Kaplan, for one) have influenced me a great deal in my opinions by engaging in intelligent, lucid discussions on issues which he feels passionately about. His debate has affected me and will probably have an impact in future buying decisions.

My point with that last example, is that there are a number of ways to have an impact. All is not lost. While you may just be "one speck of sand" on that very large beach, individuals CAN make a major impact on other's lives and values (see George Bailey in It's A Wonderful Life!).

You ended up initiating a rather thought-provoking discussion here on your methods. Maybe next you will begin another debate on how to effect the change you want and start the ball rolling.

Good luck.

 

[Mark Y]

I'll try and be a mature voice of reason here.

I will certainly agree that Led Zeppelin and/or Jimmy Page probably do not suffer any harm, and negligible loss, if someone does a parody of "Stairway To Heaven." However...the copyright holder of a piece of music does indeed have a legal right to compensation for its use, and apparently does have a legal right to deny that use altogether. I might not like it, but that's reality. The same way I don't like it that some nut case murdered John Lennon, but that doesn't change the fact that Yoko Ono saw her husband get assaulted and bleed to death and their son Sean grew up without a father. (And oh, yeah, for the unwashed masses, it means The Beatles never got a chance to properly reunite...but let's keep things in perspective here!)

From what I have seen, online petitions do not seem to have much effect, if any, on corporate decisions, which are based on studies of figures, demographics and other cold stats that really don't tell anyone much of anything. I do believe a lot of the decision-makers are utterly clueless. (No one bought the "Underdog" DVDs with their remade titles and altered music? Well, I guess no one wants those shows, these folks might be saying. It can't be that fans who grew up with the shows passed on the DVDs because they would have preferred to have them in their original unaltered form...because as all MBAs know, cartoons are just for kids, right?)

I do believe sites such as this one and places like Amazon can provide a great service, which is to give feedback on material which already has been released. If something is altered, edited, missing, or whatever, someone will chime in and let us know about it, so we know in advance and can decide if it's worth getting. (Although I am utterly mystified by these so-called "reviews" of DVDs that show up on Amazon before they are even released, by someone who hasn't even seen the item in question yet. Sure, rant on and on about how this was your favorite show, etc., but this does not tell anyone anything at all about what the actual content of the DVD is...which is why I read reviews at Amazon in the first place. I have actually read Amazon reviews where someone will write something along the lines of, "it says volume one, so this must be the first season, so it should include the following episodes...since this will be on DVD, it must be a great transfer," etc. What's the point unless more concrete information is available about what actually is on it?)

In the case of SCTV, that is one show where the people behind it have a really good relationship with the fan community and they have a good idea of what the fans really want, because they listen to what is being said. Shout Factory is not to blame for the SCTV cuts, because they are working from masters provided to them by Second City, who went through the shows with a fine-toothed comb on the advice of lawyers. (I question whether that was really necessary in the first place; it seems at least for the TV reruns, the philosophy was to not take any chances and if there was any question about something, just chop it out and stick something else in its place. For the DVDs, they seem to have actually looked at each segment on a case by case basis and made efforts to work out whatever deals were necessary...I note many cuts are different between the reruns as aired on TV Land versus the DVDs, and in some cases one or the other will include something missing from the other...sometimes it's in the TV Land reruns' favor, most times it's in the DVDs' favor.)

Shout Factory, I presume, also would be the entity that decided to go with a "Best Of" set for the next release, based on sales. I believe if it were up to the Second City people, I gotta think they would want the whole thing out there...it would be more potential money in their pockets and better for their relationship with the fans.

I am thinking maybe this set originally was intended to be a Season 3 set, as early rumors seemed to indicate. But I can't imagine that many episodes would have to be knocked off over licensing. I don't know, but if someone's offering me 20 episodes I don't otherwise have, sure, I'll be glad to have them.

 

[george kaplan]

I completely disagree. What you have to do is NOT buy and then complain. If a studio puts out a cheap ass dvd, with syndicated versions, and music replacement and it sells great, they have no motivation whatsoever to spend more money to do it right.

I agree that complaining is required, but buying and complaining is just sending the studio a mixed message. Hurting their bottom line, and letting them know why is the solution.