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CD/SACD changer?


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#1 of 15 OFFLINE   Dan Driscoll

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Posted October 04 2005 - 02:08 AM

My old Carver SD/A-360 CD changer is getting pretty long in the tooth, and I'd like to add SACD capability. Budget has a hard limit of $300, so I'm looking primarily at used changers. SACD is a must, a universal DVD changer is also an option, although my Panny RP-91 can continue to handle DVD-Audio duty, if necessary. This player is intended for audio use only, if it can beat the RP-91 on the video side that would be OK, but isn't a major concern.

My musical tastes run primarily to classic rock (Elton John, Supertramp, Fleetwood Mac, Cheap Trick, etc.), some jazz/soul (Sade, Sam McClain) and some hard rock and metal (Goo Goo Dolls, Queensryche). The preamp is a Rotel RC-1070, the power amp is a Sherbourn 5/1500A and the speakers are Vandersteen Model 2C's. Here are a few players I'm looking at:

Yamaha DVD-C750 - (new, $300, universal) well reviewed sound quality, particularly for redbook playback, but hammered for slow disk changes, funky logic, defaulting to DPL, poor video, no 2:3 pulldown.

Onkyo DV-CP802 - (used $250, universal) Good audio reviews, hammered for bad shuffle, random play (non-foctor to me), funky logic, poor video.

Sony SCD-2000es - (used $230, CD & SACD only) I haven't been able to find much in the way of reviews for this player.

Sony SCD-222es - (used $230, CD & SACD only) Reviews say good SACD performance, redbook not quite as good, thin, noisy mechanism.

Sony SCD-333es - (used $300, CD & SACD only) I could only find a few user reviews, but all were very positive WRT sound quality. Cons were slow disk reads, ocassionaly hangs when reading TOC, requiring a power cycle. FYI, this is a 2 channel player only, no multi-channel outputs. However, if this player is appreciably better than any others in its price range, for both redbook and SACD, I have no problem doing without MC capability. Stereo performance is much more important to me.

Comments on these or other players would be appreciated. And yes, I am aware that single disk players are generally considered to have better sound quality. But in in my price range and given the constraints of the rest of my system, I don't believe there would be an appreciable difference. Being able to put 5 or 6 disks in and listen for an extended period, without having to get up and change a disk, has an appeal, especially since I generally only listen to 2-3 songs per album. TIA

Dan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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#2 of 15 OFFLINE   ChrisHeflen

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Posted October 04 2005 - 05:02 AM

All the reviews I have read on the Yam 750 have said it has good/very good video for a player in it's price range. Unfortunately the ergonomics team must have been absent when they made it. http://www.audioholi....VDChanger1.php

I just picked up a Sony DVPNC80, just for fun. Haven't taken it out of the box yet. So I don't know how good it is.

#3 of 15 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted October 04 2005 - 05:12 AM

I have the 222ES, and I don't find it noisy at all. I think they may be talking about the drawer mechanism, which IS noisy when changing discs, almost alarmingly so. It's a loud clunk, I thought mine was broken the first time I heard that, but others report the same thing and no problems. During playback, it's not an issue. Redbook is very decent and SACD is excellent on this player. I'm currently using it for 2ch only, as I swapped the multichannel to my 2900 so I could have m/c DVD-A too.

I'd say look around for a 555ES, the big brother of the 222, though they may still be just out of your price range. Otherwise, I think the 222 is a good choice, if it isn't too old.

You might also consider a Denon 2200. Very good at everything, but not so much a stand out at anything in particular, and should be right in your price range. Very good video quality too.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#4 of 15 OFFLINE   Phil A

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Posted October 04 2005 - 05:36 AM

I have the 2000ES in the secondary basement system. Have a Modwright XA-777ES in the main system and a Pioneer Elite DV47-A in the bedroom system. I've had friends bring over an XA-9000ES and a Marantz 8260 and we compared them in my main system (Thiel 7.2s, Bryston 14BSST amp, etc.) and the 2000ES held up very well on SACD. It was not horrible on CD either at its price point. The friend who has the XA-9000ES borrowed it for a week when I first got it (basement was not quite done) and sold a $3.6k CD only player and bought the XA-9000ES after living with the 2000ES for a week. He said he thought the 2000ES was better overal than his expensive CD player on CDs (some positives and negative though). I heard the 2000ES in his system right out of the box and it certainly was not blown out of the water by his old CD player. At $399 list and dealers like oade.com and others, it probably can be had new at your budget level. It won't do DVD-A though like the other choices noted, so if that is important it might be something to consider

#5 of 15 OFFLINE   JackS

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Posted October 04 2005 - 06:02 AM

Here's a changer that sounds interesting. http://www.6moons.co...ws/trl/595.html
For 150 bucks you might be able to equal the big guys (with the mod of course.)

#6 of 15 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted October 04 2005 - 08:12 AM

A friend just bought a Sony SCD-2000ES new from Oade Brothers for $249.
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#7 of 15 OFFLINE   Dan Driscoll

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Posted October 05 2005 - 04:30 AM

From what I've been able to learn, the Sony SCD-C222es is probably the weakest of the bunch, WRT audio quality. Not to say it's bad, just that the others are better. The Yamaha DVD-C750 has so many user interface and firmware issues, plus the glacially slow disk change, that I just don't think it's worth dealing with. And apparently there is a serious static issue WRT some SCD-C333es units when playing multi-channel SACDs, so it's out, also.

That means I've pretty much narrowed my choices down to the Sony SCD-C2000es and the Onkyo DV-C802. Right now I'm leaning towards the 2000es, Oade Bros. has it for a great price (thanks, Rachael) and it would be brand new, with a warranty. But I'd like to hear from anyone who has experience with the 802 before I pull the trigger.

Dan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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#8 of 15 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted October 05 2005 - 06:29 AM

Comparing it to my 2900, the 222 is a better SACD player. Not sure where you're getting your info, but it's not a bad player at all. At first I though it only had basic bass management, but after messing around with it for a while, I found it's unusual setup capabilty to work quite well. For redbook I use digital and the DACs in my Marantz 8300 because it uses a multi-DAC config when listening in 2ch (called ADDC). Where are you are in the bay area? You're welcome to come listen to them both.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#9 of 15 OFFLINE   Dan Driscoll

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Posted October 05 2005 - 07:26 AM

Hi John,

I did not intend to imply that the 222 was bad, just that the information I've collected suggests that the 333 and 2000 are better, particularly WRT redbook performance. That's been pretty consistent among the reviews and user comments I've been able to find from people who have experience with them. I have about 15 times as many CD's as SACD's, so redbook performance is important. SACD performance between these models does seem more much more comparable. FWIW, I don't think we're talking about a huge difference here. But given that the 2000 is a more modern player, seems to have better redbook performance and I can buy it new with warranty for only $40 more than a used 222, well...

Your's are the first comments I've seen comparing the 222 to the 2900, but I'm not surprised that the 222 sounds better in SACD, that's the weak point (IMO) of the 2900. I may be wrong, but doesn't the 2900 do a DSD to PCM conversion? If so, that may be why.

BTW, I live in Fremont and I appreciate the offer. I would enjoy getting together sometime, but my time is committed for the next several weeks.

Dan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--Benjamin Franklin

#10 of 15 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted October 05 2005 - 07:48 AM

I've read reviews of the 333 and 777 as well as the 555, all of which seemed to get more or less better reviews for redbook than the 222, but I got a great deal on the 222 used (in near new condition), and the 555 was a bit more than I wanted to spend at the time. I haven't heard the 2000, so I can't comment on it, but new is always a good thing. I'm curious to hear the new 3000ES single disc too.

I had heard the 2900 at Magnolia with my own reference SACD, Patricia Barber's Cafe Blue, and I thought it sounded good, but I could already tell it wasn't as good as the 222 in stereo. Now that I have compared them in M/C in my own setup, the opinion stands. I am not sure if this player does DSD->PCM or not, I just know that the sound is good, but not quite as good as the 222. Again, I got the 2900 used for a good price, so I'm not complaining. DVD-A is very good and redbook was surprisingly pretty good as well on the 2900 (but I use the 222 for that anyway).

Shoot me an email when you get some free time and we'll setup a listening session, maybe see if a few other locals are available too. Posted Image
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#11 of 15 OFFLINE   Dan Driscoll

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Posted October 05 2005 - 09:31 AM

If I could find an SCD-C555es in my price range... Posted Image

Here is a long thread about the SCD-C2000es started by a guy who also has a 333 and a 555.


I'll let you know. Maybe I'll have a new player by then.Posted Image

Dan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--Benjamin Franklin

#12 of 15 OFFLINE   ChrisAG

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Posted October 07 2005 - 03:34 PM

I have the 222ES, and while I haven't heard the 2000ES, it looks almost identical specification wise to the 222ES, so I'm not sure why it would sound better. In fact, another thread lists some of the 2000ES specs as INFERIOR to the 222ES.

I enjoy the 222ES for redbook... it sounds much better than a Marantz CC3000 I tried.

It's probably a toss-up. The 2000ES might have a newer DAC... the 222ES retailed for $800 US at first, then $500... is the 2000ES' lower price due to cutting corners or the fact that SACD is no longer a brand-new (expensive) technology?

I'd bet they sound pretty much the same, but you'd have a warranty if you went for a new 2000ES.

#13 of 15 OFFLINE   Dan Driscoll

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Posted October 08 2005 - 07:30 AM

Hello Chris,

I believe the 222es was released in '99 or '00? But it definitely was an earlier SACD model. The 2000es was released early this year, IIRC. That time frame alone is sufficient to account for the price difference. I know the 2000es as different DACs than the 222es and the 2000es has 2 seperate power supplies, while I believe (but don't know positively) that the 222es has 1 power supply.

Both were/are Sony's ES entry level models at the time they were released. While it isn't guaranteed, generally newer entry level models perform better than older entry level models. With high end models it can be a different story.

And you're right, the warranty is a big selling point. I can get a brand new 2000es, with warranty, for less than $40 more than a used 222es. And still stay under my budget.

Dan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--Benjamin Franklin

#14 of 15 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted October 08 2005 - 03:14 PM

The 222ES has two power supplies same as the 2000. My bet is that they're close to same player, if not exactly. A friend just got a 2000 so I'll hear it sometime in the next month or so.
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#15 of 15 OFFLINE   Glenn Clemente

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Posted October 09 2005 - 12:56 PM

The 222ES was manufactured from 2001 to 2003, so it's not that old.
Also, apart from its beefier build and heavier chassis, the 222ES consumes more power compared to the 2000ES.