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PSB 5T sounds "weird"


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#1 of 22 DaveZeisler

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Posted June 18 2004 - 07:30 AM

OK, so here's my setup (not that I'm saying, "Hey, check me out!" just for reference): a Onkyo TX-DS696, with PSB Image series speakers on all five channels (5T, 9C, and 2B) connected with Sound King 12 gage speaker wire.

About a month ago, the 5T on the right front channel started sounding "weird." I dunno how to describe it, it sounds a bit muffled. I swapped out the speaker cable, moved it to a different channel, even moved it to a different part of the room, and its still the same. It's KILLING me. They're a little over a year old.

Am I screwed? do I need to have it re-coned?

Any input will be very much appreciated!

Dave

#2 of 22 Nhan_H

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Posted June 18 2004 - 07:51 AM

Maybe the tweeter fried? Try turning the volume down and sending a high frequency signal to see if you can hear the tweeter at all.

#3 of 22 DaveZeisler

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Posted June 22 2004 - 02:35 AM

Seems as if there's something coming from the tweeter, but not everything that I would expect to, especially when compared to the other 5T on the left channel.

I e-mailed PSB and they seem to think I need to take the speaker in for service. Great, and it's only a year old?

Would it be possible that since these speakers are bi-wirable, that the jumpers on the binding posts are the problem? I suppose anything is possible.

Thanks for the input!

Dave

#4 of 22 John Garcia

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Posted June 22 2004 - 04:07 AM

At low volume, listening closely, put your hand over the tweeter, then remove it. If there is no difference, the tweeter is probably fried. If the jumpers are connected, they are not the problem.

I'd say the 696 is probably pushing its limits with those speakers.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#5 of 22 DerekF

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Posted June 22 2004 - 03:34 PM

I have PSB 5Ts and a 9C as well...and the 9c has been in the shop once, the towers twice. All this in the first 18 months...

...which is why I always recommend Paradigm to my friends...Posted Image

I'd recommend taking them in for repair (and getting a loner pair for the duration).

Once fixed, they sound great (as I'm sure you know), but boxing them up and taking them back is a huge PITA!

#6 of 22 Nhan_H

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Posted June 22 2004 - 03:38 PM

That's too bad. I've had my PSB Image 6ts for about 3 years now (actually, 2.5, since I sold them 6 months ago to a buddy). They've had zero problems. Not sure why paradigms would seemingly be better quality. Perhaps you got a bad batch of PSBs?

#7 of 22 DaveZeisler

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Posted June 22 2004 - 02:35 AM

Seems as if there's something coming from the tweeter, but not everything that I would expect to, especially when compared to the other 5T on the left channel.

I e-mailed PSB and they seem to think I need to take the speaker in for service. Great, and it's only a year old?

Would it be possible that since these speakers are bi-wirable, that the jumpers on the binding posts are the problem? I suppose anything is possible.

Thanks for the input!

Dave

#8 of 22 John Garcia

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Posted June 22 2004 - 04:07 AM

At low volume, listening closely, put your hand over the tweeter, then remove it. If there is no difference, the tweeter is probably fried. If the jumpers are connected, they are not the problem.

I'd say the 696 is probably pushing its limits with those speakers.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#9 of 22 DerekF

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Posted June 22 2004 - 03:34 PM

I have PSB 5Ts and a 9C as well...and the 9c has been in the shop once, the towers twice. All this in the first 18 months...

...which is why I always recommend Paradigm to my friends...Posted Image

I'd recommend taking them in for repair (and getting a loner pair for the duration).

Once fixed, they sound great (as I'm sure you know), but boxing them up and taking them back is a huge PITA!

#10 of 22 Nhan_H

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Posted June 22 2004 - 03:38 PM

That's too bad. I've had my PSB Image 6ts for about 3 years now (actually, 2.5, since I sold them 6 months ago to a buddy). They've had zero problems. Not sure why paradigms would seemingly be better quality. Perhaps you got a bad batch of PSBs?

#11 of 22 DaveZeisler

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Posted June 23 2004 - 02:46 AM

Ouch, this is disheartening. Posted Image

Well, did a little more troubleshooting last night and looks to me as if the binding posts for the higher frequencies are bad somehow. When I plug the speaker wire into the upper range posts and remove the jumpers the sound is tinny and almost non existant when compared to the other speaker. When connected to only the lower range binding posts, it sounds as it should, correct volume on the lower ranges.

So, is this something PSB should pick up the tab for?

Thanks to everyone for their help. I'm going to go cry now.

Dave

#12 of 22 John Garcia

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Posted June 23 2004 - 03:45 AM

How many of the speakers have the problem? Sounds like you fried tweeter(s), and while PSB may take care of it for you, it is likely that it is not a speaker problem, but rather a potential lack of power from your receiver.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#13 of 22 DaveZeisler

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Posted June 23 2004 - 04:41 AM

It's just the one speaker.

I guess you'll need to explain the lack of power from the receiver. My Onkyo is rated at 100 watts at 8 ohms, which I think translates to 125 or 130 watts for 6 ohms, which the imepdance selector is switched to since all my PSB speakers are rated for 6 ohms. The 5T has listed RMS of 10 to 175 watts.

In short, looking at the numbers, seems as if the receiver has plenty of power to drive the speakers and not blow them.
Of course, I ain't no engineer. What's your take? I'm hoping to find the root of the problem so I cna prevent it from happening again.

Thanks again all!

Dave

#14 of 22 John Garcia

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Posted June 23 2004 - 01:15 PM

Your receiver most likely delivers more power at 6 Ohms, but don't blindly assume that it delivers a "rule-of-thumb" level of power. That power is not FREE either, it comes in the form of higher current draw, meaning the amps are trying to deliver more power than they are rated for. The 6 Ohm switch should help, but the fact is, the power supply can still only deliver so much current. The fact is, the 696 IS a nice receiver, but it may struggle during dynamic peaks at a certain volume. Nearly all receivers are rated by the 2ch performance (though most manufacturers will claim this rating for all channels) My receiver is rated at 120w x 6, but only delivers 92wpc with all channels driven (120w x 2).

9 times out of 10, a blown tweeter is caused by clipping, aka distortion, which is caused by the amp being unable to deliver sufficient current to reproduce the sonic signature's sinewave correctly (clipping the peaks). The way I understand it, this actually causes the amp to draw even MORE current to try to do it's job. The end result is, the voice coils in the drivers heating up, and since tweeter's VCs are generally quite small, they tend to melt first.

Dynamic peaks or high SPLs cause sudden current draw, and are likely culprits. Your room size, the volume (SPL) you are asking of the receiver, and the material you are listening to at a given moment, are all factors.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#15 of 22 DerekF

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Posted June 23 2004 - 05:06 PM

Quote:
That's too bad. I've had my PSB Image 6ts for about 3 years now (actually, 2.5, since I sold them 6 months ago to a buddy). They've had zero problems. Not sure why paradigms would seemingly be better quality. Perhaps you got a bad batch of PSBs?


When I got the speakers home, I noticed they weren't packed to well (packing tape holding feet together, etc). I paid for brand new speakers, and said as much to the pinheads at A&B Sound, but they sweet-talked me into keeping them, saying they'd fix anything that went wrong.

Well, plenty went wrong. I'm pretty confident I was shafted by A&B Sound, and given demo speakers--which accounts for the problems I've had. To add to insult to injury, A&B Sound doesn't carry PSB anymore, so replacements won't happen.

But at least I'm not bitter.Posted Image

I mention Paradigm because I like them equally as much as PSB to listen to, but I can't wholeheartedly recommend PSB after my experiences...Even though they are fine now...touch wood.

#16 of 22 Nhan_H

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Posted June 23 2004 - 05:35 PM

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. Seems like you shouldn't be recommending A&B, instead of PSB Posted Image

I bought my PSBs off of an internet site (although they had an "office" located in town). They were a very legitimate business, but not an authorized dealer. I went to pick the speakers up myself. The place was not what an audio/video retailer/wholesaler should look like. The guys were nice enough, but I took a chance of not getting good service...luckily, none was ever needed. My PSBs were solid from the start. I'm sure A&B had a better reputation than this "unknown" place I purchased my PSBs from.

#17 of 22 DaveZeisler

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Posted June 23 2004 - 02:46 AM

Ouch, this is disheartening. Posted Image

Well, did a little more troubleshooting last night and looks to me as if the binding posts for the higher frequencies are bad somehow. When I plug the speaker wire into the upper range posts and remove the jumpers the sound is tinny and almost non existant when compared to the other speaker. When connected to only the lower range binding posts, it sounds as it should, correct volume on the lower ranges.

So, is this something PSB should pick up the tab for?

Thanks to everyone for their help. I'm going to go cry now.

Dave

#18 of 22 John Garcia

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Posted June 23 2004 - 03:45 AM

How many of the speakers have the problem? Sounds like you fried tweeter(s), and while PSB may take care of it for you, it is likely that it is not a speaker problem, but rather a potential lack of power from your receiver.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#19 of 22 DaveZeisler

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Posted June 23 2004 - 04:41 AM

It's just the one speaker.

I guess you'll need to explain the lack of power from the receiver. My Onkyo is rated at 100 watts at 8 ohms, which I think translates to 125 or 130 watts for 6 ohms, which the imepdance selector is switched to since all my PSB speakers are rated for 6 ohms. The 5T has listed RMS of 10 to 175 watts.

In short, looking at the numbers, seems as if the receiver has plenty of power to drive the speakers and not blow them.
Of course, I ain't no engineer. What's your take? I'm hoping to find the root of the problem so I cna prevent it from happening again.

Thanks again all!

Dave

#20 of 22 John Garcia

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Posted June 23 2004 - 01:15 PM

Your receiver most likely delivers more power at 6 Ohms, but don't blindly assume that it delivers a "rule-of-thumb" level of power. That power is not FREE either, it comes in the form of higher current draw, meaning the amps are trying to deliver more power than they are rated for. The 6 Ohm switch should help, but the fact is, the power supply can still only deliver so much current. The fact is, the 696 IS a nice receiver, but it may struggle during dynamic peaks at a certain volume. Nearly all receivers are rated by the 2ch performance (though most manufacturers will claim this rating for all channels) My receiver is rated at 120w x 6, but only delivers 92wpc with all channels driven (120w x 2).

9 times out of 10, a blown tweeter is caused by clipping, aka distortion, which is caused by the amp being unable to deliver sufficient current to reproduce the sonic signature's sinewave correctly (clipping the peaks). The way I understand it, this actually causes the amp to draw even MORE current to try to do it's job. The end result is, the voice coils in the drivers heating up, and since tweeter's VCs are generally quite small, they tend to melt first.

Dynamic peaks or high SPLs cause sudden current draw, and are likely culprits. Your room size, the volume (SPL) you are asking of the receiver, and the material you are listening to at a given moment, are all factors.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein