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And you thought (hoped) colorization was dead....


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#41 of 121 Kevin M

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Posted December 21 2003 - 01:48 AM

Quote:
What about watching a color movie on a black & white TV?

Those are the limitation's of the technology, not the limitations of certain peoples acceptance of original artistic intent.
A B&W TV doesn't intentionally alter the the films it shows as much as it can't offer color under no fault of it's own, it is what it is, however we are talking about people who intentionally set out to second guess original artistic intent.
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#42 of 121 Alanna

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Posted December 21 2003 - 02:57 AM

I don't mind studios putting their crayons to classic movies as long as the original B&W versions are readily available - and not crappy half-assed versions either. Its sometimes amusing to see how they colored these old flicks and I know some people would not buy them just because they are B&W just like how some people won't buy widescreen movies because "I dont want NO black bars on my television." Personally, I wouldn't buy a colorized movie but that's just my preference. =)
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#43 of 121 Jeff Jacobson

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Posted December 21 2003 - 05:23 AM

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It's not the same as a 5.1 mix of a mono source, as most 5.1 mixes of a mono source usually (if done right) clean up the sound so everything is better defined (dialog clearer, music pushed into the other speakers, so it well sound like what it would in a theater today). Adding colour is destroying all artistic intent.


Quote:
If a movie has only a 5.1 remix, can't I just set my audio receiver to mono and get the same results?

A good example of a BAD 5.1 remix of a mono source is Rhino's "Transformers" season sets. They just add in a bunch of new sound effects over the old sound track, and it sounds horrible. Listening to the 5.1 tracks in mono doesn't give you the same sountrack as the original. (These sets also have a stereo track, but they added the new sound effects to this track too!)

This is similar to the colorization process, adding in colors that were never intended to be there. As others pointed out, watching the colorized version in B&W is not the same as watching the original B&W version.

#44 of 121 MatthewLouwrens

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Posted December 21 2003 - 08:39 AM

Quote:
Maybe they could colorize the Kansas portions of The Wizard of Oz.
Hell, I've always wanted the Oz sequences to be in black and white.

Quote:
I can think of one project that simply demands colorization: Cinderella, with Julie Andrews. This TV program was broadcast live in 1957 in COLOR, but the only existing version of it is a black and white kinescope (a film print made by placing the camera directly over the black and white monitor). The colors of the costumes and sets should be carefully researched, and then digitally applied to the black and white film print.
I have no problem with colourising provided the work was originally in colour and the only prints now available are in B&W. I would, however, like to see a better result than it presented on that site.
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#45 of 121 Dan Rudolph

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Posted December 21 2003 - 09:31 AM

The demoes certainly look better than past colorizations methods, but still no one would mistake them for native color films.
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#46 of 121 Lewis Besze

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Posted December 21 2003 - 02:12 PM

I found both sound remixing[to multi channel]and colorization acceptable as long as the original versions are availbale as well.
Sorry guys, I won't loose sleep over this.

#47 of 121 Kevin M

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Posted December 22 2003 - 02:25 AM

Quote:
...as long as the original versions are availbale as well.

Yes that is the point I tried to make before, however if we don't make it quite clear to these studios that the originals are to be respected then we might begin to see colorized only versions of these films similar to P&S only titles that also raise the hackles of us film fans.
If we remain quiet in our contempt for these altered films then they won't know how important it is to offer the original versions....silence is not always golden IMO.
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#48 of 121 Barry_S

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Posted January 16 2004 - 06:53 AM

Lots of misinformation going on here. Colorization does not alter the underlying black and white levels. It ehances the mood and intent of the original cinematographer and director. Shadows and highlights are not altered in any manner but are colorized accurately and automatically to match the affect if the film were originally shot in color. The new process of Legend Films, when seen in high definition (rather than on a web site) will show its new, proprietary photo-real color effects system.

Using a High Definition Spirit telecine system for unparallelled digital transfer from the original negatives and/or prints, all colorized feature films from Legend Films go through a complete, full feature film restoration that includes dust busting, as well as the replacement of bad, torn or spliced footage. The audio is enhanced and in many cases turned into a conservative 5.1 for added value. Each DVD Legend Films produces includes BOTH the colorized version and the restored black and white version on the same disk. In addition, whenever possible, any major talent including directors, etc that are still living are included in both the creative aspect of the colorization process as well as added value commentary on the making of the feature film.

Those of you who are aware of the rather meager efforts the studios are making on restoring their deep catalog will appreciate that colorization is a viable and valuable way to subsidize the restoration and preservation of our American Film Heritage. We do NOT touch the original negative and all restoration, while at high definition and film resolution is done digitally so that new prints and negatives can be created.

I agree that films exhibited on TV that have been pan and scanned and also chopped up for advertising placement is far more offensive than colorization. If a classic can be ruined by colorization, particularly when the black and white restored version also is included on the same DVD, then it was likely not a classic in the first place.

FYI - there is no intention to colorize "All About Eve". That was merely a test of the early system. We are not touching the sensitive titles where the director clearly intended a black and white look. Another FYI: Ray Harryhausen is very interested in directing the color of some of his most famous classic animation feature films. We are looking into the possibility of bringing him onboard to provide all the creative input on his own work.

Bottom line: There is a huge international market for colorization and we are intent on producing the best possible product at the highest resolution while at the same time preserving and enhancing the original black and white elements for your enjoyment.
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#49 of 121 Darrell Bratz

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Posted January 16 2004 - 09:13 AM

Yes that is the point I tried to make before, however if we don't make it quite clear to these studios that the originals are to be respected


...Unless of course the original you're talking about is something like Reefer Madness, which basically exists to be disrespected. So colorize it, get Mike Nelson to do the commentary, heck drag the whole MST3K set out of mothballs and have at 'er. Hire the ghost of Carmen Miranda to dance in the foreground. You really can't hurt it, only make it more fun.

And as someone else said, I kinda like my colorized (Side B) version of "A Christmas Carol" too. It makes it seem...I dunno...Christmassy.

I'll save my indignation for more pressing matters.

#50 of 121 Nick Graham

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Posted January 16 2004 - 09:22 AM

As long as they offer the black and white as well, I see no reason to gripe. If they ever offer ONLY the color version, however.......

#51 of 121 Barry_S

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Posted January 16 2004 - 09:39 AM

Nick - That is not the intent nor will it ever happen. All of our DVDs will have both the the fully restored colorized version and the fully restored black and white version. The studios would never neglect the original version and will always offer it, particularly the version that we restore.

Barry
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#52 of 121 Lew Crippen

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Posted January 16 2004 - 09:49 AM

Quote:
Those of you who are aware of the rather meager efforts the studios are making on restoring their deep catalog will appreciate that colorization is a viable and valuable way to subsidize the restoration and preservation of our American Film Heritage. We do NOT touch the original negative and all restoration, while at high definition and film resolution is done digitally so that new prints and negatives can be created.

This is good information. So long as colorization is being done to films which need a restoration process in any case—and those films are also being made available in B&W, I have no problem with Fox (or any studio) making such a commercial decision.

However, I would suggest that (what turns out to be misinformation) when it appears that resources are being used to colorize recently restored films like All About Eve, it should come as no surprise that emotions run high.

As an observation, Carnival of Souls already exists on DVD. While I have not viewed my copy in some time, I don’t recall it as being a title in need of restoration. And it is certainty not one that would benefit from having color added to what was clearly intended to be B&W.

If I could make a modest suggestion, there are many, many titles of importance more in need of restoration that Herk Harvey’s film. Perhaps colorization could be used to subside the restoration of one of them instead of one that has already been restored.
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#53 of 121 Barry_S

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Posted January 16 2004 - 10:02 AM

Lew - hold back judgement until you've seen the colorized version of "Carnival of Souls". This surreal classic is even more bazarre than the original after our creative team put their efforts in. We addressed the original intent of the director and made the feature scarier than ever. Of course the original has been restored both in Black and White and audio. Hope you buy the new release.

Barry
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#54 of 121 Derek_McL

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Posted January 16 2004 - 11:14 AM

I've got to say I'm a sceptic about this but I've never seen the colourisation being described here so I can't comment on that. I suppose yes as long as the original negative isn't touched and a black and white version is issued fair enough. But I'm just concerned that one day the commercially minded will colourise everything if this system is as good as its being touted. If indeed it replicates shadows exactly as if a film was shot in colour (whatever that means).How do you know unless I suppose you have someone on hand who was there ? The fact is though the film wasn't shot in colour : shadows in colour to me are nothing like shadows in black and white.

All I know is any colourisation I've seen has looked absolutely hideous. I don't agree that a classic can't be destroyed by colourisation. Universal in the UK has colourised versions of some of their Laurel and Hardy titles alongside the black and white originals and its like comparing night and day. The image far from being improved looks less sharp and clear. For minor titles with a small audience maybe but why alter that lovely photography.

#55 of 121 Barry_S

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Posted January 16 2004 - 11:45 AM

Derek - hold off on your criticism until you've see the restored black and white and the colorized versions. We're not only restoring the black and white for the purists, we're also bringing the content to a whole new audience that does not readily accept black and white content as easily as we do. The idea is to broaden the audience to these classics and maybe the new generation of audiences will also want to view the black and white original but in a fully restored and watchable version. This is not the colorization you've seen in the past. This is a horse of a different color :-)

Best,
Barry
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#56 of 121 Mark Cappelletty

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Posted January 16 2004 - 12:34 PM

I'm definitely opposed to colorization, but I'm glad that Barry is on the forum and willing to state his case in eloquent terms.

#57 of 121 Rick P

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Posted January 16 2004 - 01:43 PM

Barry...

Please get in touch with www.restoration-team.co.uk They could use expertise such as yours to 'recover' some episodes of Dr Who that, altho originally filmed in colour are now only existant in black/white. The last time they referenced the process they were quoted at around $2000/minute.

#58 of 121 Barry_S

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Posted January 16 2004 - 01:53 PM

Hi Rick,

I'll get in touch with them. I remember working on some of the titles back in the early 90s as a test when the older digital system was in its infancy. The product was good for the time but certainly not what it could be today. I'll let you know how I make out. Much depends on the quality of the original elements (i.e., garbage in, garbage out).

Thanks,
Barry
Barry B. Sandrew, Ph.D.
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5075 Shoreham Place
San Diego, CA 92122Tel: 858-450-4420Fax: 619-615-2020Cell: 760-497-1922URL: www.legendfilms.netURL: www.offcolorfilms.com

#59 of 121 Rick P

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Posted January 16 2004 - 02:13 PM

Thanks... I'll bet your best candidate would be "Invasion of the Dinosaurs" part 1, which (to hide the suprise) was just titled "Invasion". Unfortunately it was junked along with another serial that was also called "Invasion". AFAIK good quality b/w tapes/film exist. Same for one episode of "Planet of the Daleks". Both serials are lacking one episode in colour and is preventing a video release.

#60 of 121 AndrewR

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Posted January 16 2004 - 02:51 PM

Rick:

Good call on bringing Doctor Who to Barry's attention. With all the work the Restoration Team has done with the VidFIRE system, I've been hoping and praying they'd find a cost effective way of restoring the color to some of those Who episodes.

Barry:

I plan on buying Reefer Madness ONLY because the B&W original has been restored. As long as you follow that trend, I'll buy whatever titles come out in the future (that I'm interested in, of course).

Good luck!

Andrew

PS - Oh and PLEASE contact the Restoration Team.

(Okay. Doctor Who mode off)
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