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Subjective listening evaluation and/or comparison: VMPS Larger to SVS PB-2 Plus


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#1 of 81 OFFLINE   Roger Eckert

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Posted November 26 2003 - 04:49 PM

I have an approximately 3000 cu. ft. home theater/music room with 3 large openings. I'm trying to get a good single sub match for the room. I had an SVS 20-39 PC Plus that sounded good but fell a bit short in needed output-especially for HT. My very short list of candidates include the following:
1) A VMPS Larger, fully equipped, teamed with either a QSC PLX 2402 amp or a
Carver Pro 1600 amp
2) An SVS PB-2 Plus

I'm not interested in comparing specs
or being critical of VMPS for not publishing all their specs. I'm also not wanting to look at the forthcoming SVS PB-2 Ultra. What I AM interested in is hearing members' SUBJECTIVE listening evaluations of either or both of these subs in an environment similar to mine. The room I'm working with is 20'9" x 18' with an 8' ceiling, carpet, fireplace, and 3 openings leading to other rooms. One of these openings leads down a stairway and is 7' wide.
I understand that my subjective listening evaluation will be the final word. Still, I value member feedback and want to hear what you have to say.
Thanks in advance,
Roger

#2 of 81 OFFLINE   steve nn

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Posted November 27 2003 - 02:05 AM

Hi Roger. Your HT sounds very much like mine. Frank Carter just posted a pic for me in another Thread that will give you a good idea of what I'm up against. It can be found half way down the page here>> http://www.hometheat....9&pagenumber=2

My size HT is 2880 cu. ft. with four openings. One 25-31CS+ did fairly well but dual was a definite big improvement. All the headroom I really need actually even though I have added a third. With port plugs engaged I still have enough headroom with dual though. No material presents a problem at -0 on up in their stock tune with a +1 to +4 db sub calibration. If you want any specific numbers just give me a holler and I would be glad to provide any that I can with what I have to work with.

No experience with VMPS but I understand your consideration.

The PB2+ would foot the bill for you though. You could possibly sell your PC+ like I'm sure you have thought of or try it teamed up with the PB2+ if space/WAF? permits.. Going with dual PC+'s would be a great option also even though it is not as cost effective as the PB2+ option. I guess I am deviating from your original question a little so from the experience I have with SVS and dual 25-31CS+'s in the same size HT as you. My vote goes to the PB2+.

#3 of 81 OFFLINE   Roger Eckert

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Posted November 29 2003 - 04:09 AM

Steve,
Thanks for the input. Glad to hear someone has attained good bass and headroom in a very leaky room similar to mine. I was wondering though. It looked like your dual subs are located next to one of the large room openings. Is this correct? I was told that this kind of sub placement is a tabu due to large losses, yet your system is doing great. I have only been considering corner loading up to this point. Guess I'll have to reconsider and be more open to experimentation.
I've sold my 20-39 PC Plus locally to a good friend. It sounds fabulous in his
2900 cu. ft. vaulted ceilng HT with NO openings. That room was very easy to pressurize.
I'm really hoping the PB-2 Plus will do the trick for me. It's actually a lot less money than the VMPS combos I'm also considering. I've ordered this SVS sub but
still wonder whether it will be adequate for my very tricky music/HT room. I guess hearing will be believing. Up to this point I've tried/owned an NHT SW2Pi with additional Si slave, an NHT Sub 2i(2 10"ers + 500 watt amp), an ACI Titan II (my favorite except for total output/headroom), and the SVS 20-39 PC Plus. Given my room's bass challenges and the different subs I've tried, I'm admittedly a bit uncertain whether or not the PB-2 Plus will cut the mustard for me. The terrific sounding ACI was the only sealed design sub I tried. Perhaps multiple sealed, or a large passive radiator design like the VMPS Larger, is a better way to go in a'leaky room.' If the PB-2 Plus doesn't cut it, I suppose that's an option. Anyone have a thought on this?
I'll certainly be reporting back when the PB2-Plus arrives.
Sincerely,
Roger

#4 of 81 OFFLINE   Edward J M

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Posted November 29 2003 - 05:52 AM

Roger,

In a leaky, large room, I would definitely run the PB2-Plus in the native (stock) tune with all three ports open and the SS filter set to 25 Hz.

The PB2+ is damn near bulletproof in that tune, and can be pushed very hard and I expect it will generate significant SPL even in your room.

In the stock tune, you won't see quite the in-room extension of the 20-39 PC+, but you will have considerably more headroom (probably around 5-6 dB).

Just remember that people's taste in bass and their expectations vary wildly. There is an enthusiast on the forum boards who owns two SVS B4-Plus' and two SVS PB2+'s. While this may seems like extreme overkill to most (hell even a single B4-Plus meets that definition for many), it works for him.

Another HTF forum member (Joel Solid) owns dual stacked PB2+ in a large (7,000 ft3) room and absolutely loves the performance they deliver.

The list of single enclosure subs that can run with a PB2+ is extremely short and the price tag is considerably higher. It is a bargain at $1,200. If you ultimately discover you need two PB2+ to meet your bass needs, you would still be in the bargain territory at $2,500 considering a single passive B4-Plus costs the same sans amp.

Good luck in your quest for great bass. If you liked the sound of the 20-39PC+, but found it ultimately lacking in maximum output capability, I think you will be pleased with the PB2+.

Even if you tune the PB2+ to 20 Hz by plugging a port, it will still better a 20-39PC+ by 3-4 dB and provide similar or even a bit better extension.

Regards,

Ed
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations

SVS

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"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."


#5 of 81 OFFLINE   steve nn

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Posted November 29 2003 - 06:18 AM

Hi Roger> I think you made a good decision on the PB2+. I have nothing to gain by saying that except you in the future thinking man I have good bass. All the reasons Ed states is my total thinking and knowing what dual 25-31CS+'s will do. (By the way that is three 25-31+'s in the pic) Just have to say that. The PB2+ is the best bang for your $$ sub imo hands down. Please show me a better deal aside from DIY (I question that even) and I will consider the option myself. You have a great sub on the way and I bet you a dollar you agree once you have set it up and listened to it.Posted Image

#6 of 81 OFFLINE   terence

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Posted November 29 2003 - 06:59 AM

I have to agree with Steve and Ed. The PB2+ is a excellent sub. The guy that Ed is talking about with the 2 B4's and 2 PB2's lives here in Atlanta. He decided to sell his PB2's and stay with the B4's, a friend of mine purchaced one of the PB2's this week and after calibrating (One port Plug SS Filter set to 20Hz)this beast i spent hrs running every bass, music disc i could throw at it and it was flaw-less! I started at 11:20pm and finished at 4:10am Wed morning, my friend is a happy camper. SVS has a true winner on their hands.
Tee

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#7 of 81 OFFLINE   steve nn

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Posted November 29 2003 - 07:18 AM

Hi Terence' I decided to watch RELOADED at - 0 to -3 in the 20 hz tune yesterday +4db sub calibration and oh my gosh what a ride! I just want everyone to experience this with a good rig with the headroom that is generally required.

#8 of 81 OFFLINE   terence

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Posted November 29 2003 - 07:34 AM

Hey Steve,

Way ahead of you buddy! I have had in my possesion a Hollywood Screener of The MR for 3 months (thx to my cuz who works in the biz) before it was released. It has both soundtracks DD 5.1 & DTS 5.1 and now that i'm running dual 20-39PC Pluses the DTS version is absolutly breath taking! The bass is got to be one of the best released this year next to Finding Nemo. I demo this movie every chance i get, now that i have plenty of headroom in my HT this movie is just banana's!
Tee

"Enjoy Movies & Music."

My Home Theater

#9 of 81 OFFLINE   steve nn

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Posted November 29 2003 - 07:48 AM

Ok Terence you have RELOADED in the DTS version. I'm on my way! It will take me awile. So get your dual 20-39+'s warmed up. I'm on my wayPosted Image Posted Image

#10 of 81 OFFLINE   Roger Eckert

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Posted November 29 2003 - 07:55 AM

I'm getting excellent subjective feedback
on the SVS PB-2 Plus. I appreciate it. Can I get similar subjective feedback on the VMPS Larger side of the house?
Thanks
Roger

#11 of 81 OFFLINE   CurtisSC

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Posted November 29 2003 - 08:11 AM

For VMPS feedback you should head over to audiocircle.com.

This, being an SVS sponsored forum has many more SVS supporters.
curtis
Manhattan Beach, California

#12 of 81 OFFLINE   Roger Eckert

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Posted November 29 2003 - 08:49 AM

I know about Audiocircle. Thanks for the idea anyway. I'm hoping to find someone, somewhere in this forum who has actually heard both the SVS PB-2 Plus and the VMPS Larger in an environment similar to mine and is willing to share their subjective analysis here. I understand this forum
favors SVS. I also understand this forum has members, be it a smaller number, who
own and love their VMPS Larger as much as SVS owners love ther subs.
It's hard to do comparative analysis if you haven't compared, which is what I'm hoping to do. Since neither of the subs I'm interested in is available for listening through a brick and mortor store, member feedback becomes even more important. If I cannot find someone who has actually listened to and subjectively evaluated both of these subs then the next best thing will have to do-individual opinions on each sub by themselves. I'm going to hang with it here-waiting and hoping for feedback and ideas on both products. Either side or both-feel free to weigh in.
Sincerely
Roger

#13 of 81 OFFLINE   terence

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Posted November 29 2003 - 09:17 AM

Quote:
Ok Terence you have RELOADED in the DTS version. I'm on my way! It will take me awile. So get your dual 20-39+'s warmed up. I'm on my way.Posted ImagePosted Image


We will be here waiting. Posted Image
Tee

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My Home Theater

#14 of 81 OFFLINE   Joe Wilmore

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Posted November 29 2003 - 11:58 AM

Well I guess I will give my opinion since I have owned both. I had the VMPS larger, powered by an Adcom 555 mkII. I also owned a 20-39 pci previously. I feel the VMPS larger and the 20-39 are about even. The PB2+ is a very different animal. I have a 20 x 20 room, with a large arch leading to the dining room. The PB2+ just fills the room with bass. It is hard not to turn it up to high, because it creates such a sensation with movies, and music. I bought the amp for the VMPS used, and the larger had all available upgrades, so they ended up being about the same in price. I would say the PB2+ has been my best purchase so far. The VMPS is a good sub, and the ability to tune it is a useful feature. It is just not in the same league as the PB2+. Also, I set up the PB2+ in about 2 minutes, and with the VMPS I was adjusting it every day. I can't stress to you enough how much better the PB2+ is.

#15 of 81 OFFLINE   steve nn

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Posted November 29 2003 - 01:05 PM

I can't stress to you how much better the PB2+ is.

__________________________________________________ ____

Listen and learn. Can I say Joe knows what he knows? Good reason to liston...

The PB2+ will not let you down. You can trust me if you want the best bass $$ can buy.......Posted Image

#16 of 81 OFFLINE   CurtisSC

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Posted November 29 2003 - 01:38 PM

Joe, on Oct. 7th, you posted this:

Quote:
I have the VMPS Larger, with all of the options. It is being powered by a Adcom 555 in stereo. I used to have a 20-39 Pci. I know it is one of the lower SVS models. The VMPS is in another league. I don't know how it would compare to the higher end SVS models, but I won't be looking to buy another sub. The great part about the VMPS is the adjustable passive radiator. You can tune the bass to your room. It is also a stereo sub, as you can run each woofer separately. It has massive amounts of output.


In this thread:
http://www.hometheat....81#post1802581

And back in March you said this:

Quote:
I can comment directly on this, because I just replaced a 20-39 pci with a VMPS larger. I would start by saying for $549.00, I can think of nothing wrong with the SVS. It does everything right, and most people would never want or need anything more. That being said, the VMPS is in another class altogether. I am listening to music with the sub 5 db's higher than the SVS, and hearing greater detail in the songs. I know that the SVS is one of their lower models, but I have come to the conclusion that subwoofers have a tone quality to them. I know that the ultra or the PC Plus are much better than the PCI, but I don't think that changes the tone of the sub. I am probably one of the few people on this site that does not think you can just take a great 12" driver drop it in a whatever liter box, and it will blow everything away. There is a tone quality in bass. And no, the SVS, at least the PCI, is not better for movies, not even close. And yes, I know the PC plus or the Ultra would be better than the PCI. I was very happy with the PCI, but after hearing the VMPS for just a couple of days, I know that I will not ever be buying another sub.


In this post:
http://www.hometheat....34#post1420834

What changed your mind? Those post read totally different than what you posted above.
curtis
Manhattan Beach, California

#17 of 81 OFFLINE   Joe Wilmore

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Posted November 29 2003 - 01:58 PM

Curtis, you are right. When I first got the VMPS, I was amazed at the ability to tune it to the room, and with music I could get the mid bass impact. What I realized later, is that by removing or adding the putty to the passive radiator, I was just changing the tuning frequency. I had several friends ask me why they felt less of the low bass sensation with the VMPS. I found out I had the passive radiator tuned higher for my liking on music, but I was missing out on the low impact from movies. I watched a few movies with the VMPS, and the mid bass was very good. However, on movies that went down close to 20hz, I felt something was missing. That is what led me to buy the PB2+. I really didn't realize that with the size of my room, I needed much more output to fill it with bass. I will admit that I went overboard on the praise of the VMPS when I first got it. Knowing what I do now though, I am very happy with my decision.

#18 of 81 OFFLINE   CurtisSC

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Posted November 29 2003 - 02:08 PM

Thanks for the quick reply Joe. So you praised the VMPS for 7 months while you thought it was lacking? What is interesting is that you said the Larger outclassed the PCi, and now say they are equal.

How big is the room you are using the sub in? Oops....20 x 20.
curtis
Manhattan Beach, California

#19 of 81 OFFLINE   Tom Vodhanel

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Posted November 29 2003 - 02:13 PM

Joe,Ed, Steve... thanks for taking the time to share those thoughts about SVS. Regarding the *tuning* of subwoofers...what you(Joe) experienced is actually quite common/normal. If you took two absolutely identical subwoofers and placed them in say...a 2000 cu-ft room. Then added a highpass filter to one of them at say...40-45hz, calibrated both evenly...I bet most(if not all) people would prefer the unit that has all the real low bass filtered out on just about all popular music. The subwoofer being touted as *musical* often has nothing/little to do with how accurate it reproduces the input signal...

Tom V.
SVS

#20 of 81 OFFLINE   Joe Wilmore

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Posted November 29 2003 - 02:40 PM

I remeasured my room. It is actually 24x21, and the arch opening is 6' wide, which leads to a 8x16 room.





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